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  1. #31
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I had a thought about that line of internal monologue where Clint goes, "My girlfriend thinks she's better than me because she's the Night Nurse and she helps people, while I run around shooting them with arrows. In her defense, she is better than me, but that's not the point."

    Compare it to the speech Bobbi gave Dominic Fortune after their breakup: "Clint's too good a man for what we have to do in this kind of life."

    Both of them are superheroes who chose that life and all that it entails in order to keep the world safe (and, okay, also because they wanted adventure), but they still think that their significant others (or ex-significant others) are better than they are because they engage in less violence.

    I wonder how this fighting vs. healing tension will play out in his new relationship. Clint has always dated women who were at least a little bit more ruthless than he is. What will it be like for him with the shoe on the other foot?
    Great catch. It also reminded me of the things Nat keeps on saying about him which reinforces your point.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  2. #32
    All-New Member GodOfTheDankdimension's Avatar
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    Im thinking the new ronin is Swordsman

  3. #33

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    New Ronin will be Zemo as some have speculated.
    He will assert his dominance, call Clint a fruit loop, and then physically take over the comic as lead role for exactly 4 and a half issues.
    And I will love every second of it.

  4. #34
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    Rosenberg did have Zemo seemingly killed...although its a rather ambiguous sort of death (I mean, he was supposedly disintegrated by someone who has possessed a disintegrating power before). I don't think anyone expects that death to stick--and I'm not convinced Rosenberg actually intended it to be a real "death". It could have just been a fake-out death to end that story...and then pick the character up again here.

    His take on Zemo had its occasional good moments, but yeah, by the end of the run Helmut really didn't sound right, did he? I've found Rosenberg to be rather hit-and-miss with his characterizations. When he is on point, he does a fantastic job...but when he misses the mark, he really misses.

    As for Zemo's fighting skills--I dunno; after his time as Citizen V I think he could plausibly be the new Ronin. It would be a very impressive showing for him to be able to handle Clint, Bucky and Falcon all at once...but part of that was those three getting in each other's way too.
    Totally agree with everything you've said about Zemo. Hopefully, Helmut returns to prominence very soon.

  5. #35
    Fantastic Member Sneakronicity's Avatar
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    I'm really torn on how I feel about Freefall. For the most part i enjoyed it, but I think so much hype surrounding it left me also disappointed. I absolutely loved how Rosenberg wrote Clint in Tales of Suspense, and despite my not liking Bucky as a character, the Clint/Bucky interactions were such a highlight for me. I guess because I enjoyed ToS so much, and because of how much Rosenberg and everyone else on twitter has been hyping up this book for months, I felt let down a bit when I actually read it. I felt there were bits that leaned a little more into the "incompetent Hawkguy" persona than I liked, and Sam seeming so convinced that Ronin was Clint felt off. Also if I'm gonna feel any investment in a new relationship I need to see it developed, not just suddenly appear full formed. That's the biggest thing that ruined MCU Clint (though obviously a much different situation as that plot just destroyed all chance of character development for him, while this is completely out of the blue but he's still Clint). I dunno. I didn't dislike the issue, but I'm hoping the next one will win me over.

  6. #36
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OOTCS View Post
    I had a thought about that line of internal monologue where Clint goes, "My girlfriend thinks she's better than me because she's the Night Nurse and she helps people, while I run around shooting them with arrows. In her defense, she is better than me, but that's not the point."

    Compare it to the speech Bobbi gave Dominic Fortune after their breakup: "Clint's too good a man for what we have to do in this kind of life."

    Both of them are superheroes who chose that life and all that it entails in order to keep the world safe (and, okay, also because they wanted adventure), but they still think that their significant others (or ex-significant others) are better than they are because they engage in less violence.

    I wonder how this fighting vs. healing tension will play out in his new relationship. Clint has always dated women who were at least a little bit more ruthless than he is. What will it be like for him with the shoe on the other foot?
    I've only just noticed this, but it feels like Clint has been really self-deprecating to himself lately.

    (Also, it really seems like Night Nurse gets around. First Strange, and I think they teased she had a fling with Iron Fist or Luke Cage? Somebody else major I'm missing. And now Clint).

  7. #37
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakronicity View Post
    I'm really torn on how I feel about Freefall. For the most part i enjoyed it, but I think so much hype surrounding it left me also disappointed. I absolutely loved how Rosenberg wrote Clint in Tales of Suspense, and despite my not liking Bucky as a character, the Clint/Bucky interactions were such a highlight for me. I guess because I enjoyed ToS so much, and because of how much Rosenberg and everyone else on twitter has been hyping up this book for months, I felt let down a bit when I actually read it. I felt there were bits that leaned a little more into the "incompetent Hawkguy" persona than I liked, and Sam seeming so convinced that Ronin was Clint felt off. Also if I'm gonna feel any investment in a new relationship I need to see it developed, not just suddenly appear full formed. That's the biggest thing that ruined MCU Clint (though obviously a much different situation as that plot just destroyed all chance of character development for him, while this is completely out of the blue but he's still Clint). I dunno. I didn't dislike the issue, but I'm hoping the next one will win me over.
    I think this one was more to setup the overall plot which it did rather quickly while introducing a lot of elements without feeling rushed and I have no doubt that we'll see more interactions with his girlfriend and more competence in the following issues now that all the cards are on the table.

    And if anyone looked like a goof it would have to be Falcon who had one of those high risk-no reward scenes there xD
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've only just noticed this, but it feels like Clint has been really self-deprecating to himself lately.

    (Also, it really seems like Night Nurse gets around. First Strange, and I think they teased she had a fling with Iron Fist or Luke Cage? Somebody else major I'm missing. And now Clint).
    I mean that makes them a great fit for each other, doesn't it? ;D
    Clint's always been a bit of a "slut".

    I doubt this is a relationship that is meant to end up being the "love of their life" kind of thing and I assume both characters know it.
    It's probably in there to play around with the two opposing philosophies. She who helps by treating broken bones, he who helps by treating people to broken bones.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  8. #38
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    She who helps by treating broken bones, he who helps by treating people to broken bones.
    Ha, well put!

  9. #39
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I mean that makes them a great fit for each other, doesn't it? ;D
    Clint's always been a bit of a "slut".

    I doubt this is a relationship that is meant to end up being the "love of their life" kind of thing and I assume both characters know it.
    It's probably in there to play around with the two opposing philosophies. She who helps by treating broken bones, he who helps by treating people to broken bones.
    Clint always struck me as more of a shameless flirt or someone who's quick to fall in love over someone who really sleeps around, but I guess it's kind of led that way as of late.

    I guess his last serious romance was Natasha before she died, even if they treated it like a Friends with Benefits thing.

  10. #40
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Clint always struck me as more of a shameless flirt or someone who's quick to fall in love over someone who really sleeps around, but I guess it's kind of led that way as of late.

    I guess his last serious romance was Natasha before she died, even if they treated it like a Friends with Benefits thing.
    I always saw them as friends with benefits, like in my headcanon when neither of them was dating someone else because they struck me as such people.

    That said, I didn't think that's what Secret Empire was meant to convey.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Clint always struck me as more of a shameless flirt or someone who's quick to fall in love over someone who really sleeps around, but I guess it's kind of led that way as of late.
    Exactly. Clint IS the guy who falls in love too hard, too fast. We've seen it time and again. With the Black Widow, he fell so hard for her that he let her lead him into crime and treason before he finally got his head on straight again.

    He fell hard enough for Wanda that after she rejected him because she'd developed feelings for the Vision, he quit the team to give himself space to get over her without having to watch her in love with someone else.

    He was only dating Sheila Danning for a few weeks and had fallen so hard for her that when she revealed that she was only sleeping with him to distract him from the criminal activities going on at Cross Technological Enterprises, he was borderline suicidal -- he was going to just stand there and let her and her goons kill him before Mockingbird snapped him out of it.

    He married Bobbi after knowing her for a matter of days.

    He tried to be casual with Moonstone, knowing that Karla was dangerous and manipulative and not to be trusted...but he fell for her too (thankfully, she also fell for him and actually tried to become a hero for real for a while due to it).

    Clint is a man who does not easily do casual relationships. Where his dick leads, his heart quickly follows.

    In recent years a number of writers have started to write Clint as a bit more of a slut (I'd say it started either in Chuck Austen's run with the fling with Wasp, or with Bendis' run), but I think that can still be justified as Clint having learned his lesson, somewhat, from having been burned a few too many times from falling too hard, too fast and is now making more of an effort to be casual. Even so, I still don't see Clint as ever being the guy who would just have a one-night stand with someone and forget their name. If he cares enough to go to bed with you, he cares enough about you that he is going to be there for you if you need him.

    Look at Fraction's run, and his uncharacteristic affair with "Cherry" (unprecedented for Clint to cheat on someone he's dating). Even though she was just a brief fling that he regretted, he was still there for her and tried to help her out when trouble came looking for her.

  12. #42
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    Exactly. Clint IS the guy who falls in love too hard, too fast. We've seen it time and again. With the Black Widow, he fell so hard for her that he let her lead him into crime and treason before he finally got his head on straight again.

    He fell hard enough for Wanda that after she rejected him because she'd developed feelings for the Vision, he quit the team to give himself space to get over her without having to watch her in love with someone else.

    He was only dating Sheila Danning for a few weeks and had fallen so hard for her that when she revealed that she was only sleeping with him to distract him from the criminal activities going on at Cross Technological Enterprises, he was borderline suicidal -- he was going to just stand there and let her and her goons kill him before Mockingbird snapped him out of it.

    He married Bobbi after knowing her for a matter of days.

    He tried to be casual with Moonstone, knowing that Karla was dangerous and manipulative and not to be trusted...but he fell for her too (thankfully, she also fell for him and actually tried to become a hero for real for a while due to it).

    Clint is a man who does not easily do casual relationships. Where his dick leads, his heart quickly follows.

    In recent years a number of writers have started to write Clint as a bit more of a slut (I'd say it started either in Chuck Austen's run with the fling with Wasp, or with Bendis' run), but I think that can still be justified as Clint having learned his lesson, somewhat, from having been burned a few too many times from falling too hard, too fast and is now making more of an effort to be casual. Even so, I still don't see Clint as ever being the guy who would just have a one-night stand with someone and forget their name. If he cares enough to go to bed with you, he cares enough about you that he is going to be there for you if you need him.

    Look at Fraction's run, and his uncharacteristic affair with "Cherry" (unprecedented for Clint to cheat on someone he's dating). Even though she was just a brief fling that he regretted, he was still there for her and tried to help her out when trouble came looking for her.
    Excellent analysis of Clint's love life, Dermie. I always thought it was a bit OOC when Clint had that fling with Jan, since I was under the impression that Clint and Hank Pym were good buddies.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    Excellent analysis of Clint's love life, Dermie. I always thought it was a bit OOC when Clint had that fling with Jan, since I was under the impression that Clint and Hank Pym were good buddies.
    Yeah, the Clint/Jan thing was very weird -- and Clint, Jan and Hank all behaved strangely during it. Given the timing of it (right before "Avengers Disassembled") I have always assumed that it was another result from Wanda losing her grip and her control over her reality warping powers....one of the smaller symptoms before things really melted down in "Disassembled". Given that there was also some weird relationship drama in the "Disassembled" tie-in issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON with a short******d romance between Steve and Wanda that came out of no where (and that Wanda had no memory of a day or so later), it doesn't seem out of the question that she may have unconsciously screwed around with some of the other Avengers' love lives around the same time.

  14. #44
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sneakronicity View Post
    I'm really torn on how I feel about Freefall. For the most part i enjoyed it, but I think so much hype surrounding it left me also disappointed. I absolutely loved how Rosenberg wrote Clint in Tales of Suspense, and despite my not liking Bucky as a character, the Clint/Bucky interactions were such a highlight for me. I guess because I enjoyed ToS so much, and because of how much Rosenberg and everyone else on twitter has been hyping up this book for months, I felt let down a bit when I actually read it. I felt there were bits that leaned a little more into the "incompetent Hawkguy" persona than I liked, and Sam seeming so convinced that Ronin was Clint felt off. Also if I'm gonna feel any investment in a new relationship I need to see it developed, not just suddenly appear full formed. That's the biggest thing that ruined MCU Clint (though obviously a much different situation as that plot just destroyed all chance of character development for him, while this is completely out of the blue but he's still Clint). I dunno. I didn't dislike the issue, but I'm hoping the next one will win me over.
    Even if I agree that giving him an already established new relationship is a bit forcing the matter into the story, I have to say... For me, the thing that "ruined" Clint in the MCU, or at least, that worked against him, is that they stripped him of all his charm, his personality (until Civil War, where he started to be like what I expected him to be). That worked a lot more against him than having a family with a loving wife d kids, in my opinion.

    I think this ship with Night Nurse has a purpose storywise and that's why he's already in a relationship with her, but we will see how it all develops (I hope I'm right :/).
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-13-2020 at 11:49 AM.

  15. #45
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    Exactly. Clint IS the guy who falls in love too hard, too fast. We've seen it time and again. With the Black Widow, he fell so hard for her that he let her lead him into crime and treason before he finally got his head on straight again.

    He fell hard enough for Wanda that after she rejected him because she'd developed feelings for the Vision, he quit the team to give himself space to get over her without having to watch her in love with someone else.

    He was only dating Sheila Danning for a few weeks and had fallen so hard for her that when she revealed that she was only sleeping with him to distract him from the criminal activities going on at Cross Technological Enterprises, he was borderline suicidal -- he was going to just stand there and let her and her goons kill him before Mockingbird snapped him out of it.

    He married Bobbi after knowing her for a matter of days.

    He tried to be casual with Moonstone, knowing that Karla was dangerous and manipulative and not to be trusted...but he fell for her too (thankfully, she also fell for him and actually tried to become a hero for real for a while due to it).

    Clint is a man who does not easily do casual relationships. Where his dick leads, his heart quickly follows.

    In recent years a number of writers have started to write Clint as a bit more of a slut (I'd say it started either in Chuck Austen's run with the fling with Wasp, or with Bendis' run), but I think that can still be justified as Clint having learned his lesson, somewhat, from having been burned a few too many times from falling too hard, too fast and is now making more of an effort to be casual. Even so, I still don't see Clint as ever being the guy who would just have a one-night stand with someone and forget their name. If he cares enough to go to bed with you, he cares enough about you that he is going to be there for you if you need him.

    Look at Fraction's run, and his uncharacteristic affair with "Cherry" (unprecedented for Clint to cheat on someone he's dating). Even though she was just a brief fling that he regretted, he was still there for her and tried to help her out when trouble came looking for her.
    Sorry, double post. Wow! This is a pretty good analysis. I agree with how you see it. He feels like that, to me, yeah. I actually think that's the reason he keeps having "something" with Nat sometimes: because he's still in love with her. It's probably the same for every woman he's been with, to certain degree, and the reason he still cares a lot.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-13-2020 at 11:57 AM.

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