Sinestro vs The X-Men

[Pendaran]

I did look at them...I do not think they are applied evenly though, as Hulk vs superior speed/agility IS pretty common...it doesn't work as well as it "ought". Lanterns/power ring users (or Dr Strange auto shields) failing aren't low end/rare feats, they are as common or more common than high end ones; although I'll not press it, it's not worth any rancor on my end.

People without any superior speed/agility to speak of hit the Hulk all the time. Relentlessly. Does that mean he's being jobbed out when that happens? Why do you feel "the Hulk vs superior speed/agility is pretty common" and thus should mean he can hit whoever, but the Hulk getting hit all the time with people with no such thing to speak of isn't a comment on the Hulk himself having no such thing? You want to talk about the Hulk doing some speedy bit of thing, but that leaves out that by your standards, every time the Hulk gets hit by anything should make that meaningless.

Or: "it happens in comics a bunch so it counts" is not much of an argument for anything if you want to have arguments about these things any deeper than "whatever the writer would want to happen, will happen." It mostly just leads to asking why it is you feel this one thing that happens a lot means something, but this other thing that happens a lot means nothing.

I mean these are fictional characters, there is nothing they cannot do, if a story wants them to do it, and there's nothing they can do, if a story wants them not to do it. If you want to pretend you can talk about "what should likely happen" you need to set some kind of standards beyond "the comics I like count". These are the standards we use, other places use other standards, but you have to have something, or it's basically just, say, a guy saying

Hulk has speed feats likely in excess of any of them, catching & hurling back artillery shells,

Then for some reason saying

it will be hard for me to take the comics out of it though

You mean the comics where the Hulk has been hit at one time or another by almost anything and anyone you might name? Why should I care about the Hulk's speed feats by the standard of "the comics"?

I mean.. you're expressing some solid contempt here

Boring as hell, but i got it.

But it most reads like dissatisfaction at that the "feats" you want to count don't count like you want them to. The problem at the moment is that your standards for them are super contradictory. You want to be able to compare people's speeds like they're a thing that exists when it seems to suit you, but then you want to say "but in the comics this wouldn't matter".

Your argument against most things at this point seems to be "but this situation happens more often", which, okay, by that logic the Hulk has no valid speed feats then, if you want to be consistent.

[GenghisDon]

Uh, no, you have the Hulk thing backwards. Hulk HITS (or grabs, or catches) speedy things or people is & was my point. Speed doesn't work AGAINST him well, or not as well as one would expect it to. Hulk might well be better at avoiding attacks than expected, but that really would not be fair to say...as he doesn't even TRY to avoid attacks 99% of the time. That happens in the comics, too, but it's uncommon/non-standard fare, and thus, I presume, out of bounds for the board.

As to the rest...well, the same thing applies to all others...the comic THEY like to choose.

Obviously I communicated poorly, or else you are purposefully twisting things, as that wasn't what I was doing or intended AT ALL.

Or maybe I do not get you..."Why should I care about the Hulk's speed feats by the standard of "the comics"?"
My answer is: because we are on a comic book site discussing comic book characters

I think Hulk talk belongs more in a Hulk thread though, it was not my intent to spread across threads...but yes, you detected some discontent with standards being cited, then flouted. That much is true. I wasn't looking to start a fight, but hell yes, I'll state my opinions as I wish, and that's that. If that's a problem, oh well.

[Shai-Hulud]

Uh, no, you have the Hulk thing backwards. Hulk HITS (or grabs, or catches) speedy things or people is & was my point. Speed doesn't work AGAINST him well, or not as well as one would expect it to. Hulk might well be better at avoiding attacks than expected, but that really would not be fair to say...as he doesn't even TRY to avoid attacks 99% of the time. That happens in the comics, too, but it's uncommon/non-standard fare, and thus, I presume, out of bounds for the board.

As to the rest...well, the same thing applies to all others...the comic THEY like to choose.

Obviously I communicated poorly, or else you are purposefully twisting things, as that wasn't what I was doing or intended AT ALL.

Or maybe I do not get you..."Why should I care about the Hulk's speed feats by the standard of "the comics"?"
My answer is: because we are on a comic book site discussing comic book characters

I think Hulk talk belongs more in a Hulk thread though, it was not my intent to spread across threads...but yes, you detected some discontent with standards being cited, then flouted. That much is true. I wasn't looking to start a fight, but hell yes, I'll state my opinions as I wish, and that's that. If that's a problem, oh well.

Welcome to Rumbles.

See here:

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ull=1#post5895

[Pendaran]

Uh, no, you have the Hulk thing backwards. Hulk HITS (or grabs, or catches) speedy things or people is & was my point.

I'm quoting you just fine here:

Hulk has speed feats likely in excess of any of them, catching & hurling back artillery shells,

That you feel you are being taken backwards for what you wanted to mean perhaps speaks to the way the things you want to say contradict each other pretty hard. You're the one talking about speed feats. As in feats of speed. As in saying the Hulk is fast.

For instance you have a new problem here:

Speed doesn't work AGAINST him well, or not as well as one would expect it to. Hulk might well be better at avoiding attacks than expected, but that really would not be fair to say...as he doesn't even TRY to avoid attacks 99% of the time.

You want to go with "what's shown in comics" but now you want to say what's shown in comics isn't fair, because we don't know that the Hulk could secretly totally have avoided whatever thing has hit him again and again and again, he just intentionally chose not to, even though there's nothing to remotely suggest that in tons and tons of cases.

Obviously I communicated poorly, or else you are purposefully twisting things, as that wasn't what I was doing or intended AT ALL.

What you are doing is why ultimately we had to set some kind of standards for these threads because this is otherwise all they turn into. It doesn't mean you have to like them, but if your posts are going to mostly be about how boring they are or unfair or that you want to ignore them, I'd have to ask what the point is honestly?

Frankly, the only real answer to "who wins in a fight" beyond "what the writer wants" is at best "who is more popular right now and/or beloved by their publishing company?"

If you want to talk about that someone is fast, or strong, or isn't portrayed fairly, or correctly, or their powers are x, y, or z, then you have to ignore that comics absolutely 100% does not care about any of that. They're just trying to tell a story entertaining enough to make money and nothing more. And, there's no shame in ignoring that, we ignore that here all the time, just to be able to have nerd debates on these things. We act like these characters exist tangibly enough that the abilities they have can be discussed, even though no they don't and in any real sense, no they can't.

But if you are going to ignore that, then it's best to be consistent about how you ignore that, or it's all just a bunch of contradictory circling that goes nowhere and frustrates people.

[Cronus]

I cant really say much other than what Pendaran clearly pointed out, I suppose I will add that even if the argument is that Hulk does have a measure of super speed, what exactly is that level of speed? Is it consistent by the standard you (@GhenghisDon) seem to be setting?

Additionally, as a number of other posters have mentioned, the principle is high feats consistent with the character's presentation. How does Hulk's presentation support the Hulk having super speed really worth mentioning?

[The Arbiter]

I cant really say much other than what Pendaran clearly pointed out, I suppose I will add that even if the argument is that Hulk does have a measure of super speed, what exactly is that level of speed? Is it consistent by the standard you (@GhenghisDon) seem to be setting?

Additionally, as a number of other posters have mentioned, the principle is high feats consistent with the character's presentation. How does Hulk's presentation support the Hulk having super speed really worth mentioning?

That is precisely why his handful of speed feats are generally ignored when they do finally happen.

It's not his presentation to be much beyond a brick.

[GenghisDon]

I think you 3 are quite mistaken on that, but so be it

Thanks Shai-Hulud, but I've read them by now.

Pendaran:"I'm quoting you just fine here:

(Hulk has speed feats likely in excess of any of them, catching & hurling back artillery shells,)
That you feel you are being taken backwards for what you wanted to mean perhaps speaks to the way the things you want to say contradict each other pretty hard. You're the one talking about speed feats. As in feats of speed. As in saying the Hulk is fast."

No, you are not, see quote "catching & hurling back artillery shells". A feat of speed & reflexes. No contradiction, but seeming to provoke obstinate reading & obtuseness.

"For instance you have a new problem here:

(Speed doesn't work AGAINST him well, or not as well as one would expect it to. Hulk might well be better at avoiding attacks than expected, but that really would not be fair to say...as he doesn't even TRY to avoid attacks 99% of the time.)

You want to go with "what's shown in comics" but now you want to say what's shown in comics isn't fair, because we don't know that the Hulk could secretly totally have avoided whatever thing has hit him again and again and again, he just intentionally chose not to, even though there's nothing to remotely suggest that in tons and tons of cases."

I have no problem there, you do, as that was simply more clarification, & you seem not to get the point. "fair" was the terms you guys set here...are you just trolling me, or what? Hulk does not show ability to avoid blows/attacks all that often, hence, per forum rules, a showing where he does is discounted. That's the rules you all have been telling me, RIGHT?

Anyway, this is an X-men team vs Sinestro, go over to Hulk vs composite X-character...hell, follow the link I did there, or google one. 90% of the examples I knew already, again, from the comics. You guys do not like comics? oh well (although why you'd be here if you do not, I do not understand). Hulk vs Speed isn't a fluke or corner case, but again, in any event, it's more common than Power rings protecting vs a team of supers. I was willing to drop it. Some of you seem to want more than that, and that's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

[The Arbiter]

I think you 3 are quite mistaken on that, but so be it

Thanks Shai-Hulud, but I've read them by now.

How fast do you feel Hulk is? Faster then Captain America? Almost as fast as Spiderman?

[GenghisDon]

I FEEL like it's got nothing to do with "Sinestro vs The X-Men"

edit: I'll give you a response (quote/cut & paste) over in the Hulk vs composite X-character tomorrow (it will include differences between speed, reflexes/reaction time, agility, etc).

[The Arbiter]

I FEEL like it's got nothing to do with "Sinestro vs The X-Men"

You used the Hulk example as a line of reasoning in a grander point in regards to Sinestro. You seem frustrated that we are picking apart the logic you advanced in defense of your position on a debate forum.

Again, forum rules are "consistent with presentation" as opposed to just "consistent".

This matters. Hulk is not presented as a creature with any real super speed. He is presented as a smashing, raging super brick. Speed feats sneak in when you have a decades long career and multiple authors but they are often in contradiction to the general idea of him as a character.

Sinestro is presented as a brilliantly creative sadist with a cosmic wish granting esoteric power source strapped to his hand. He's presented as a credible threat to a cosmic space force. So when he does stuff consistent with that presentation (surviving planetary destruction- having esoteric shenanigans occur- etc) we tend to be more forgiving. That is the intended nature of his character.

[Cyke]

Composite X-men via Rogue wins, Hilariously Rogue can Aoe absorb powers now if I remember correctly (and I think she still has Wonder Man powerset). So Rogue either absorbs Sinestro lifeforce at a distance or absorb her whole team powers at the beginning. The Shields doesn't really save him Wonder Man(or composite absorb strength of colossus+wonder man & TK) should be in the power class to break a Lantern shield, I mean She was hitting Hulk and Juggernaut hard enough to send them flying back a decent distance in Uncanny Avengers with just Wonder Man strength. Rogue with some combo of powers wins this fight and she has history of taking a bunch of powers and fighting.

A interesting question is can Nightcrawler teleport into Sinestro shields, Which makes the fight simply Rogue teleporting inside of Sinestro .

Rogue has always been able to absorb powers (if you mean non-mutant powers, Carol Danvers can testify under PTSD), but her powers have never been shown to work on machines or weapons, and technically the ring is both.

The closest Rogue's ever gotten was combining powers with the Vision, and that's only because he fused with her in a semi-phased state.

[Pendaran]

I FEEL like it's got nothing to do with "Sinestro vs The X-Men"

edit: I'll give you a response (quote/cut & paste) over in the Hulk vs composite X-character tomorrow (it will include differences between speed, reflexes/reaction time, agility, etc).

You brought this up in this thread and went off from it at pretty solid length for why you dislike the standards here/don't feel they hold up for how they're used, don't see how that makes it not fair game to discuss.

I think you 3 are quite mistaken on that, but so be it

The contradictory stuff in your posts comes from nothing but lining them up against each other for how they contradict each other. That's just, your posts.

No, you are not, see quote "catching & hurling back artillery shells". A feat of speed & reflexes. No contradiction, but seeming to provoke obstinate reading & obtuseness.

How often is the Hulk fast enough to catch an artillery shell and hurl it back vs how often the Hulk acts at speeds nowhere near that, and gets hit by all kinds of things and people, nowhere near the speed of that? The answer, to skip ahead, is tons.

Yet for you, this counts for making a point about the Hulk, while at the same time, you feel there is no contradiction in saying various performances of power rings, autoshields, whatever, shouldn't be valued for their paucity of happening, because, you argue, that's not how comics work. Again, your posts. They've been quoted for you by several people at this point.

These things make not a lot of sense to say together, but those are your posts.

I have no problem there, you do, as that was simply more clarification, & you seem not to get the point. "fair" was the terms you guys set here...are you just trolling me, or what? Hulk does not show ability to avoid blows/attacks all that often, hence, per forum rules, a showing where he does is discounted. That's the rules you all have been telling me, RIGHT?

At this point if you feel that the standards here are everything from boring to unfair, again, those are your posts, it's not like you have to engage here? You posted to say something wouldn't be fair to say, to the point of sarcasm scare quotes now, I took that at face value that you meant something wouldn't be fair to say.

Hulk vs Speed isn't a fluke or corner case, but again, in any event, it's more common than Power rings protecting vs a team of supers.

In the grand scheme of things, linking to other forums while telling us we should be doing things like they do doesn't hold up for much as far as the whole, why won't we just click on your links stuff. Also by the standards of power rings doing high scale stuff compared to not, no, it's not really that common at all. It's especially uncommon compared to all the times the Hulk shows no speed whatsoever. For some reason you keep wanting to ignore this. That, amongst several other things, is a problem here.

You keep saying "this should be accepted for how common it is", but by your standards of what is common, no, it's not really common at all compared to it not being a thing at all. The most you could note in reply to that being observed was how that's not a fair observation to make because we don't know that the Hulk even tried to avoid whatever given thing.

I was willing to drop it. Some of you seem to want more than that, and that's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

You brought it up unprompted in this, as you say, completely other thread, and only seem to want to drop it when people felt like they could reply to your doing so. That's not thus how that comes off.

I'm not even touching presentation or what have you, I'm just tackling the issue here that your posts don't hang together on this particular topic in a way that feels anything like consistent.

I'll say this as directly as possible: There is no meaningful difference, by your standards, between the frequency with which power rings do awesome defensive stuff, compared to when they don't, and the frequency with which the Hulk will manage to perform a, to again use your words, speed feat, compared to when he is nowhere capable of such things. Yet you maintain otherwise. Considering the sheer towering number of issues of comics the Hulk has shown up in and done or had things done to him that show no speed capacity at all, this is an odd stance to take. Your argument isn't much more than a claim that these ratios are totally different in a meaningful way, when, they just aren't.

[Shai-Hulud]

Thanks Shai-Hulud, but I've read them by now.

You might want to read through 6-12 old threads and see how we argue here. You really can't just jump in and get it.

[Cronus]

With the Hulk, the best advocates of "Hulk has super reaction speed" can come up with is based off really murky and contradictory scaling. At best, Hulk falls into the "whizzing blur" category.

Hulk has dodged artillery shells? He's also been tagged by the same, and a plethora of other I'll defined, contradictory feats.

[Nik Hasta]

I FEEL like it's got nothing to do with "Sinestro vs The X-Men"

edit: I'll give you a response (quote/cut & paste) over in the Hulk vs composite X-character tomorrow (it will include differences between speed, reflexes/reaction time, agility, etc).

Genghis, just a quick note for you.

Quoting other people on the board uses the code: [*quote] text [/*quote] (remove the asterisks to make it work).

The end result looks like this:

Words words words

You may wish to start doing it as it will make your posts easier to follow when you're directly quoting someone else.

If you click "Reply with quote" under this or any other message, the quote tags will be generated for you.

Hope you enjoy your time on the board!