Mary Jane Watson-Parker Appreciation 2020

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, I have a hard time seeing the TASM films doing the relationship with MJ right considering how much of those films hinged on the chemistry between Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone and that they turned Gwen into the perfect heroine.

In some ways it's a freakish mirror of the Raimi movies. The Raimi movies set up Peter/MJ as the only love story and main emotional thread. So much so that the movie introduced Bryce Dallas Howard in the third movie (as a mix of Gwen and Ann Weying) as a rival for MJ and it just didn't work (and in fact was something Raimi was totally against). The choice to focus on the Peter/MJ as the only romance rather than do it like the comics can be justified as simply focusing on the main element and story of the continuity, whereas Peter/Gwen is a dead-end, and would never have been satisfactory unless you introduce Mary Jane and signal her as the true end-game (which by the way is how The Night Gwen Stacy Died did it, as the final panels imply).

You can't introduce a movie trilogy centered on one particular romance and then pivot to some other romance midway into the trilogy. It wouldn't work, no matter the material.

The MCU sorta did it right with introducing MJ (as she's exclusively called in the second film) as a background character but focusing on the doomed go-nowhere romance between Peter and Liz Toomes. The side-effect of that is that the MCU Spider-Man is largely not something that revolves around on romance, and romance is one of the main defining pillars of Spider-Man...and Tom Holland spends way too much time with Tony Stark and adult mentors to convincingly come off as being interested in sex.

[Frontier]

The MCU sorta did it right with introducing MJ (as she's exclusively called in the second film) as a background character but focusing on the doomed go-nowhere romance between Peter and Liz Toomes. The side-effect of that is that the MCU Spider-Man is largely not something that revolves around on romance, and romance is one of the main defining pillars of Spider-Man...and Tom Holland spends way too much time with Tony Stark and adult mentors to convincingly come off as being interested in sex.

I don't think we need to bring sex into it, it's just it was a big jump from their dynamic in Homecoming to Peter being super into her in Far From Home.

She didn't even need a Face it Tiger moment to get his attention.

And can I say how hilarious it is that we have to call her just MJ now to downplay the fact that she has a different name ?

[Jman27]

I don't think we need to bring sex into it, it's just it was a big jump from their dynamic in Homecoming to Peter being super into her in Far From Home.

She didn't even need a Face it Tiger moment to get his attention.

And can I say how hilarious it is that we have to call her just MJ now to downplay the fact that she has a different name ?

but thats what she wants to be called?

[Frontier]

but thats what she wants to be called?

Well, by her friends at least...

[Jman27]

Well, by her friends at least...

true which we are not unfortunately

[Spider-Tiger]

In some ways it's a freakish mirror of the Raimi movies. The Raimi movies set up Peter/MJ as the only love story and main emotional thread. So much so that the movie introduced Bryce Dallas Howard in the third movie (as a mix of Gwen and Ann Weying) as a rival for MJ and it just didn't work (and in fact was something Raimi was totally against). The choice to focus on the Peter/MJ as the only romance rather than do it like the comics can be justified as simply focusing on the main element and story of the continuity, whereas Peter/Gwen is a dead-end, and would never have been satisfactory unless you introduce Mary Jane and signal her as the true end-game (which by the way is how The Night Gwen Stacy Died did it, as the final panels imply).

You can't introduce a movie trilogy centered on one particular romance and then pivot to some other romance midway into the trilogy. It wouldn't work, no matter the material.

The MCU sorta did it right with introducing MJ (as she's exclusively called in the second film) as a background character but focusing on the doomed go-nowhere romance between Peter and Liz Toomes. The side-effect of that is that the MCU Spider-Man is largely not something that revolves around on romance, and romance is one of the main defining pillars of Spider-Man...and Tom Holland spends way too much time with Tony Stark and adult mentors to convincingly come off as being interested in sex.

If I'm not mistaken, the producers pushed Bryce's Gwen into SM3 because there was some concern whether Kirsten would return for future installments. (Which is silly... they should have just recast MJ if that were the case.) MJ in those movies already subbed for Gwen Stacy and there were several nods to Gwen in SM1.

But yeah, in many ways, the ASM films were the producers attempts to not only emulate the success of, but one-up the Sam Raimi films. Many of the same plot threads were revisited with some slight tweaks based on fan complaints that were prevalent at the time (Raimi films are too goofy/old-fashioned, love interest is too much of a damsel, Spider-man doesnt quip enough, etc.) It's as if the producers were actively reading online forums. TASM also tried to emulate other popular franchises of the time like the Nolan Batman Films and MCU films. The product was just a very uninspired mess. I was very disappointed at the time because I was looking forward to a great adaptation of TNGSD, which we will likely never see attempted again (unless in animated form ala DC.)

As much as I dislike the direction of the MCU films, at least the films themselves seem to be better thought out.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If I'm not mistaken, the producers pushed Bryce's Gwen into SM3 because there was some concern whether Kirsten would return for future installments.

The rule is the more movies you make with a set cast, the more value you give to those actors, and the more their agents are gonna want negotiate for bigger pay especially since Kirsten Dunst actually did break big at the time as an adult actress appearing in Marie Antoinette and other films.

(Which is silly... they should have just recast MJ if that were the case.)

Recasting works if you do it after the first film (such as recasting Rachel Dawes from Katie Holmes to Maggie Gyllenhaal in the Nolan Batman movies, which works really well) but not after three films with one actor playing the part. It wouldn't have done so well especially to go from an actress with obvious star power as Kirsten Dunst to someone who might not measure up.

MJ in those movies already subbed for Gwen Stacy and there were several nods to Gwen in SM1.

Mary Jane in the first Spider-Man movies is primarily the Mary Jane Watson of the comics, especially the character from Gerry Conway's and Tom Defalco's runs. End of story. She's not subbing in for Gwen or anyone else. She has got absolutely nothing to do with the Gwen Stacy of the 616 Continuity or anything else. This sad idea that someone can only be MJ if she mirrors the way she was in Lee-Romita's original run needs to die. The truth is Conway and Defalco's version of Mary Jane has overwritten and overpowered that across all adaptations and across the comics.

Sam Raimi loved Mary Jane Watson as a character and he always fought to include her in the movies. He made it clear that he was never interested in Gwen.

INTERVIEWER: Did the story get changed a few times?
SAM RAIMI: Absolutely. David Koepp who had wrote the first script had a piece with the two villains being Elektro and the Sandman, I think they were leftovers from James Cameron’s treatment – which I like to call a ‘scriptment’. It was an 80-page treatment with these characters, but the thing is these characters weren’t my favorite. My favorite was actually the death of Gwen Stacey. Thing is, I didn’t particularly like the Gwen Stacey character, I liked the element of it, but liked Mary Jane Watson and The Green Goblin.

So Sam Raimi read The Night Gwen Stacy Died and figured out what the real comic story was actually about. It was essentially clearing the story away from Gwen and towards MJ.

But yeah, in many ways, the ASM films were the producers attempts to not only emulate the success of, but one-up the Sam Raimi films. Many of the same plot threads were revisited with some slight tweaks based on fan complaints that were prevalent at the time (Raimi films are too goofy/old-fashioned, love interest is too much of a damsel, Spider-man doesnt quip enough, etc.) It's as if the producers were actively reading online forums. TASM also tried to emulate other popular franchises of the time like the Nolan Batman Films and MCU films. The product was just a very uninspired mess. I was very disappointed at the time because I was looking forward to a great adaptation of TNGSD, which we will likely never see attempted again (unless in animated form ala DC.)

Good point.

[Spider-Tiger]

The rule is the more movies you make with a set cast, the more value you give to those actors, and the more their agents are gonna want negotiate for bigger pay especially since Kirsten Dunst actually did break big at the time as an adult actress appearing in Marie Antoinette and other films.



Recasting works if you do it after the first film (such as recasting Rachel Dawes from Katie Holmes to Maggie Gyllenhaal in the Nolan Batman movies, which works really well) but not after three films with one actor playing the part. It wouldn't have done so well especially to go from an actress with obvious star power as Kirsten Dunst to someone who might not measure up.



Mary Jane in the first Spider-Man movies is primarily the Mary Jane Watson of the comics, especially the character from Gerry Conway's and Tom Defalco's runs. End of story. She's not subbing in for Gwen or anyone else. She has got absolutely nothing to do with the Gwen Stacy of the 616 Continuity or anything else. This sad idea that someone can only be MJ if she mirrors the way she was in Lee-Romita's original run needs to die. The truth is Conway and Defalco's version of Mary Jane has overwritten and overpowered that across all adaptations and across the comics.

Sam Raimi loved Mary Jane Watson as a character and he always fought to include her in the movies. He made it clear that he was never interested in Gwen.



So Sam Raimi read The Night Gwen Stacy Died and figured out what the real comic story was actually about. It was essentially clearing the story away from Gwen and towards MJ.

I mean Mary Jane is shown wearing a headband and green coat in the film and is thrown off a bridge. That's a very clear nod to Gwen Stacy.

I always figured Raimi's Mary Jane as being a mash-up of Betty, Liz, MJ, and Gwen. Subbing for Gwen as Peter's first love, Liz as the unattainable popular girl at Midtown, and Betty with MJ's engagement to John clearly drawing inspiration from the Betty/Ned Leeds love triangle.

I'm not sure what you mean by overwritten. Defalco and Conway added depth to MJ. But the Romita humor, fashion, and feistiness (the characteristics that popularized MJ in the first place) are still there; albeit modernized and to varying degrees depending on the writer.

Edit: as far as recasting goes, I think MJ should be bigger than the actress who plays her.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean Mary Jane is shown wearing a headband and green coat in the film...

1) Gwen Stacy at the time of her death wore a beige coat, not a green coat.

2) Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane wears scores of costumes across the three movies. You make it sound like this one out-of-context thing is her default outfit. And by the way in the comics, Mary Jane has also worn scores of different outfits including green coats and green dresses on occassions.

3) The big scenes in Spider-Man 1 has her wearing red and pink. That red chinese-style dress at the Unity Parade (called a Qipao I think) and then a pink dress in the Upside-Down kiss and another pink dress in the bridge scene.

So I think you have misinterpreted the visual evidence in these movies.

... and is thrown off a bridge.

A tram full of kids is also thrown off the bridge at the same time. Why aren't those kids compared to Gwen Stacy? Because they have about as much similarity to Gwen in that context as Mary Jane does.

I always figured Raimi's Mary Jane as being a mash-up of Betty, Liz, and Gwen.

You figured wrong. As that quote from Raimi himself makes clear.

...MJ's engagement to John clearly drawing inspiration from the Betty/Ned Leeds love triangle.

This is a new one. I don't see any similarity there at all. The engagement plot with John Jameson is drawing from a glad bag of romantic movie cliches...the girl choosing true love by picking the poor suitor over the wealthy one. Not everything in these movies is based on comics.

That's the thing, the people who wrote the screenplays of the film (Alvin Sargeant, who passed away recently wrote most of the Peter-MJ stuff) weren't comics nerds, they were professionals used to writing genre stuff, and genre moments and they bought that Peter-MJ needs to be this kind of movie romance so they based it on cliches of high school romances and other romances.

I'm not sure what you mean by overwritten.

Mary Jane coming from an abusive home, with a sh-tty father which is a big part of Kirsten Dunst's MJ as a character. That was something Defalco introduced (via Roger Stern). The fact that she likes and admires Spider-Man when everyone in New York thinks he's a menace is also true to her character (even in the Lee-Romita era where she never had any bad word to say about Spidey).

But the Romita humor, fashion, and feistiness (the characteristics that popularized MJ in the first place) are still there; albeit modernized and to varying degrees depending on the writer.

Peter Parker in the comics is also a lot more funny and humorous than Tobey's Peter. The point is that Raimi wanted the movie to have the leads be largely dramatic and serious in register, and focus the stuff on action and romance more than comedy. So having made that choice, he concieved the characters that way. So MJ is not as feisty and comedic as she was in the L-R era but Peter isn't such a motor mouth either.

[Spider-Tiger]

^ You're doing some serious backflips there to try and argue away any similarities to Gwen. The headband and green coat combo is very much associated with Gwen Stacy. And if not that then being thrown of a bridge by the Green Goblin most definitely is.

I never argued that Raimi's Mary Jane was entirely inspired by Gwen.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

^ You're doing some serious backflips...

I quote the director of the movie on record. How is that "some serious backflips"?

The headband and green coat combo is very much associated with Gwen Stacy.

Why don't you show me the scene where MJ sports this combination. Show a picture or youtube clip. The fact is that she doesn't wear that combination throughout the film nor in the major emotional climaxes.

And if not that then being thrown of a bridge by the Green Goblin most definitely is.

Again why are you ignoring the tram full of kids thrown off the bridge at the exact same time and place in the same scene?

[Spider-Tiger]

The scene where we first meet her character. On the bus and during the science exhibit.

[Frontier]

Peter Parker in the comics is also a lot more funny and humorous than Tobey's Peter. The point is that Raimi wanted the movie to have the leads be largely dramatic and serious in register, and focus the stuff on action and romance more than comedy. So having made that choice, he concieved the characters that way. So MJ is not as feisty and comedic as she was in the L-R era but Peter isn't such a motor mouth either.

He quipped across the entire trilogy. That's better than Holland by his second movie and he's supposed to be based off the biggest motormouth Spider-Man .

And this isn't counting the games where he quipped a lot.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The scene where we first meet her character. On the bus and during the science exhibit.

1) The headband is brown in color, to sort of match her hair. It's not a black headband, the kind that wore Gwen wore.

2) She wears a green cardigan, not a beige trenchcoat. That's what Gwen wore when she died.

3) Mary Jane has worn headbands in the comics a few times in her history. Like in ASM Annual #19 by Louise Simonson.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/c2...992e872d82.jpg

4) The context of this scene has nothing to do with Gwen Stacy and her death. So it doesn't even make sense as an allusion, why allude to a costume worn by another character in a moment that has nothing to do with the costume in that famous scene.

[TheCape]

I'm with Jack on this one, the only similarity that i see between Raimi MJ and Gwen is being Peter first love and being thrown of a bridge, everything else is either MJ or new stuff that Raimi and co added.