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  1. #421
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The MCU also really doesn't understand the value of civilians as civilians, and providing emotional grounding and focus on the stories. To them supporting cast are really support crews and not actual people.

    Mary Jane in Raimi's movies may have been overly damselized but she was the emotional center and grounding of the stories, and it mattered tremendously that she showed gratitude to Spider-Man when nobody else in New York did (after Jameson's first smear campaign).
    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    They do use civilian supporting cast - initially. But they do often end up becoming superheroes. Pepper Potts was prominent in the Iron Man films, but finally became Rescue in the recent Avengers films - Jim Rhodes was also just a civilian in the first film before becoming War Machine in the second. Jane Foster was in the first two Thor movies, back when she was also just a civilian in the comics. Having missed the third film, she'll be back in Thor 4 - with the powers she's since gained. Same thing with Wasp, who suited up for the first time in Ant-Man 2 and was just civilian Hope van Dyne in the first one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, but if she's supposed to be based on Mary Jane Watson, she should be able to keep up with the craziness of Spider-Man without needing to put a costume on. It's part of the characters appeal, and being the focal point of Peter's civilian life, not making her another costumed Superhero.

    We've still got Scott's other family...aside from Cassie who will end up with a costume. But I don't count Hope as a civilian even pre-Wasp because she was trained and involved even before she put a cosutme on.
    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Keep in mind; MJ did not have superpowers in ‘Into The Spider-Verse’ and she worked very well. Although I liked her in RYV, MJ(when written well ( as opposed to when you know who wrote her ( initials DS)), does not need to be jazzed up). She works well just the way she is.
    Generally agree with you all, although to be slightly fair to the MCU, the more recent comics it's based on (or inspired by) have also been pretty bad about keeping the characters' stories grounded in some recognizable semblance of humanity. It's been one of my own ongoing complaints, that most of the superheroes spend more time around other superheroes (or agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. or some other clandestine government agency) and are increasingly secreted and isolated from the civilian masses they protect, thus leading to a kind of alienation and/or emotional disconnect that renders them oblivious to the effect their (more dubious) actions have on those civilians.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #422
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Generally agree with you all, although to be slightly fair to the MCU, the more recent comics it's based on (or inspired by) have also been pretty bad about keeping the characters' stories grounded in some recognizable semblance of humanity. It's been one of my own ongoing complaints, that most of the superheroes spend more time around other superheroes (or agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. or some other clandestine government agency) and are increasingly secreted and isolated from the civilian masses they protect, thus leading to a kind of alienation and/or emotional disconnect that renders them oblivious to the effect their (more dubious) actions have on those civilians.
    This is my main complaint with Peter's terrible attempt at keeping a secret identity and outing him in his second move (fifth in MCU chronology).

  3. #423
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This is my main complaint with Peter's terrible attempt at keeping a secret identity and outing him in his second move (fifth in MCU chronology).
    Yeah, I can definitely see that.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    They do use civilian supporting cast - initially. But they do often end up becoming superheroes. Pepper Potts was prominent in the Iron Man films, but finally became Rescue in the recent Avengers films - Jim Rhodes was also just a civilian in the first film before becoming War Machine in the second. Jane Foster was in the first two Thor movies, back when she was also just a civilian in the comics. Having missed the third film, she'll be back in Thor 4 - with the powers she's since gained. Same thing with Wasp, who suited up for the first time in Ant-Man 2 and was just civilian Hope van Dyne in the first one.
    The MCU playing down civilians supporting cast has been a notable complaint by quite a few people. It does mean that we rarely get a sense of how regular people see or feel about this hero and villain stuff and it adds to a sense of the MCU being a very elite club.

    That's not a problem because most MCU characters such as Iron Man and Cap don't have notable civilian supporting characters. Spider-Man though has a civilian supporting cast as famous, and in some cases, more famous, than many heroes, so when you fit that square peg into the round hole of the MCU, you get something less than the sum of the parts.

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The MCU playing down civilians supporting cast has been a notable complaint by quite a few people. It does mean that we rarely get a sense of how regular people see or feel about this hero and villain stuff and it adds to a sense of the MCU being a very elite club.

    That's not a problem because most MCU characters such as Iron Man and Cap don't have notable civilian supporting characters. Spider-Man though has a civilian supporting cast as famous, and in some cases, more famous, than many heroes, so when you fit that square peg into the round hole of the MCU, you get something less than the sum of the parts.
    Funny enough, I think that's a problem with the limitations of the movie format. You only get two hours a piece for the plot and everything, so anything that isn't seen as relevant to said plot, even if it would flesh out the characters and world around those characters more, gets cut out, which is a shame. In that sense, I appreciate that Endgame at least tried for the first hour or so to address the aftermath of Thanos's decimation of the universe on the civilian level, and I recall reading an article that indicated that the upcoming Disney+ series, specifically The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, would start to correct that oversight as well. If so . . . well, it'd be about time.

  6. #426
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's not a problem because most MCU characters such as Iron Man and Cap don't have notable civilian supporting characters. Spider-Man though has a civilian supporting cast as famous, and in some cases, more famous, than many heroes, so when you fit that square peg into the round hole of the MCU, you get something less than the sum of the parts.
    Well, the modern versions of Tony and Steve do, but they had a lot of civilian or at least relatively normal people as part of their lives during the 80's-90's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, I think that's a problem with the limitations of the movie format. You only get two hours a piece for the plot and everything, so anything that isn't seen as relevant to said plot, even if it would flesh out the characters and world around those characters more, gets cut out, which is a shame. In that sense, I appreciate that Endgame at least tried for the first hour or so to address the aftermath of Thanos's decimation of the universe on the civilian level, and I recall reading an article that indicated that the upcoming Disney+ series, specifically The Falcon and The Winter Soldier, would start to correct that oversight as well. If so . . . well, it'd be about time.
    Or how much stuff gets left off-screen...like the entire build up to Peter and Michelle's relationship.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, the modern versions of Tony and Steve do, but they had a lot of civilian or at least relatively normal people as part of their lives during the 80's-90's.

    Or how much stuff gets left off-screen...like the entire build up to Peter and Michelle's relationship.
    Very good point there.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #428
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Whatever. Michelle Jones or Mary Jones, she is not Mary Jane ( especially when it comes to personality).,
    The MCU MJ could be both an update of the concept of the original character and still be a different entity, e.g. MCU Ghost vs 616 Ghost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I think the idea is so she won't otherwise be a completely helpless damsel waiting for Spider-Man to come to her rescue, which comics canon MJ has never actually been (I blame the Sam Raimi films for spreading this idea among the masses)...
    You mean this one?

    spiderman-3-movie-screencaps.com-13761.jpg
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #429
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/mikeavila/status...57845999570945

    Good twitter thread about 1970s Spidey, and MJ.

    I revisited some classic 1970s Spider-Man issues for a recent tribute piece I did on the great Ross Andru, https://syfy.com/syfywire/rememberin...der-man-artist . It turned into a months-long Spidey bender involving hundreds of comics. thats the web-slinger's secret sauce - it's the best soap opera in comics

    The re-read reminded me of the jaw-dropping lineup of talented artists who have drawn Spidey - Andru, Keith Pollard, John Romita Jr (several runs), Ron Frenz, @Todd_McFarlane, etc - but also the writers. @gerryconway, @marvwolfman, David Michelinie, Roger Stern, @DanSlott, JMS ...and @NickSpencer7, who together with @RyanOttley have made the latest Amazing series so much fun. binging decades of Spidey history has been nostalgic, maddening & joyous. But the biggest thing I (re)discovered going through 500+ Spidey comics?

    Mary Jane Watson is one of the great supporting characters in comics. MJ & Peter are hands-down Marvel's best couple. That's in part because she's often more likable than Peter! Her character arc is borderline miraculous considering her original one-dimensional portrayal.

    The death of Gwen Stacy opened the door for MJ's big move. @gerryconway & Ross Andru made it happen. Andru's MJ was as gorgeous as Romita Sr's, but she was just a bit more...serious. Peter & MJ's 1st kiss in ASM #143. had forgotten how great a page this is.

    Conway clearly liked MJ & her maturation evolved nicely after Gwen's death. The original Clone Saga really turned the tide on the perception of MJ. You couldn't read those issues & not cheer for MJ over Clone Gwen. Peter finally got the memo & made the right call.

    Pete/MJ Vol. 1 lasted around 5 years...until Wolfman came on board & torpedoed the romance with Pete's ill-fated proposal. I love just about everything Marv has written, but his time on ASM (182-204) bordered on sadism. He tortured Peter over & over.

    let's see - Pete got dumped by MJ, missed graduation, saw the Black Cat die (she got better), was decked by Ned Leeds & slapped by Betty, excommunicated by his friends ... and then Aunt May dies (not really). c'mon! I'd forgotten how joyless that era of ASM was.

    Part of the problem w/that run is something that plagues other Spidey writers. To create adversity for Spidey, they undermine Peter to the point that you can see why he has trouble w/relationships. Anyway, aside from a cameo in #201, we don't see MJ for several years.

    Peter's supporting cast got short shrift for awhile, but at least we had the Hobgoblin. Overexposure & silly retconning would kind of cripple Hobby's impact, but I'd forgotten how cool he was at the time. Roger Stern & JRJR finally brought MJ back in #243.

    That began a slow-burn reconstruction of the MJ-Peter relationship. Then issue #257 changed everything. I remember reading that comic in 1984 & being gobsmacked. MJ revealing she knew Peter was Spidey was a BIG DEAL, the kind that would crack the Internet, if it existed.

    I loved Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz's time on ASM. The Peter-MJ 'ship wouldn't be as popular as it today w/out this era, which established their friendship as the backbone of their relationship. Mary Jane's backstory gave her depth & let the character stand on her own.

    That's enough rambling for now. I'll tackle post-wedding Spidey and what holds up and what doesn't in another way-too-long thread.

  10. #430
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    https://twitter.com/mikeavila/status...57845999570945

    Good twitter thread about 1970s Spidey, and MJ.
    Glad that we have Mike Avila on our side on this. He's a brilliant showrunner for Syfy Wire's Comics Stuff.

  11. #431
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    The MCU MJ could be both an update of the concept of the original character and still be a different entity, e.g. MCU Ghost vs 616 Ghost.



    You mean this one?

    spiderman-3-movie-screencaps.com-13761.jpg
    And she did attempt to ambush Doctor Octopus in 2, though Ock's tentacles spotted and blocked her. Valiant effort, however. Point taken.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #432
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    https://twitter.com/mikeavila/status...57845999570945

    Good twitter thread about 1970s Spidey, and MJ.
    Cool accounting of the ups and downs of Spidey and Peter/MJ's relationship .

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Or how much stuff gets left off-screen...like the entire build up to Peter and Michelle's relationship.
    Yeah...The shift to Peter being in love with MJ all of a sudden in Far From Home was...odd to me... From what I've seen from MCU MJ in Homecoming is that she hasn't even had ONE pleasant interaction with Peter (unless I missed a moment with her in the same scene with Peter with her not telling him how much he sucked) . It feels like they only brought them together out of obligation than actually wanting to actually build into their relationship.

  14. #434
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Yeah...The shift to Peter being in love with MJ all of a sudden in Far From Home was...odd to me... From what I've seen from MCU MJ in Homecoming is that she hasn't even had ONE pleasant interaction with Peter (unless I missed a moment with her in the same scene with Peter with her not telling him how much he sucked) . It feels like they only brought them together out of obligation than actually wanting to actually build into their relationship.
    Well, Homecoming at least set up the possibility that she had a crush on him (which is why she was always needling him and was in detention with him even though she wasn't even given detention) but Peter definitely went from not really paying much attention to her to being head over heels pretty quickly between movies.

  15. #435
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    I said this before, but whatever problems i might have with the Raimi movies, at least there i did understand why Peter and Mary Jane were interested in eacth other.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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