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  1. #1006
    Spectacular Member Pattern_Maker's Avatar
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    When they made Mary Jane pursue being a reporter in Ultimate Spider-Man (the cartoon) I honestly didn't care since it was only featured twice in season one and just ignored for the rest of the show except for that one moment in season 4.

    In the Playstation 4 series, the writers show how passionate Mary Jane is about being a reporter, and moving on up from that. And her wanting to go to Symkaria, in the middle of a war, for me that was seeing a new side of her.

    I'm not saying that comics MJ or any other version of her hasn't shown bravery or boldness, but I liked seeing her doing something different than what we might assume.

  2. #1007
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Ultimate cartoon MJ reminds me of one of my problems with the reporter fixation is that it seems to dull her personality a fair bit, and I felt this a tad in the PS4 game.

    One thing I enjoyed about MJ in Marvel's Spider-Man was she actually felt really fun and sassy.

  3. #1008
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't care for it. At all.

    Reporter MJ just feels kind of boring and uninspired to me.
    That's what I mean. Takes away her uniqueness

  4. #1009
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Reporter MJ isn't any more a dealbreaker for me than Peter Parker working at the Daily Bugle.

    The reason why Stan Lee and Ditko had Peter work at the Daily Bugle, a big newspaper with a cantankerous editor was as a kind of tribute to Superman, Daily Planet, and Perry White. Since people don't make an issue for the Daily Bugle making Peter Parker a "little too Clark Kent" I don't see why the same thing doesn't apply here.

    With MJ as reporter at least the Daily Bugle and its staff, Robbie and others, come into play in the story, right. And that's what counts. Marvel have tried to keep Peter out of the Daily Bugle in adaptations and since BND and so on, so that means that people needed to find another way to bring that stuff into play.

    And ultimately the core objections to MJ is simply "being a reporter". The actual character in Spider-Man PS4 is very much a composite of her 616 and Ultimate origins. So if the issue is just "Being a reporter" then I kind of think those complaints are silly and childish. At least you need to look at other stuff. Mary Jane would be a Lois Lane clone if for instance she like Spider-Man but dislikes Daily Bugle co-worker Peter Parker and so on (and don't @-me about how Post-Crisis Lois isn't this, not important).



    There's this phrase "Elections have consequences". Well Publicaton and Adaptations also have consequences, and failure to adapt and failure to maintain a certain iconic status also has consequences. Especially in the teeth of competition. Mary Jane has become an iconic enough character in her own right that Lois is no longer the defining instance of comics love interest anymore. This isn't to say Lois isn't famous or well known just that this single character no longer has monopoly on her own archetype.

    Remember that Mary Jane was so popular that in the '80s, fans asked explicitly for her and Peter to get married. They didn't want Peter to get married in general, but to her. And Peter and MJ getting married in the '80s was a major comic event that went into the news and created hoopla that anticipated the Death of Superman. It was the biggest comics event of the '80s in terms of mainstream news coverage. Whereas when Superman and Lois got married in the '90s, it was comparatively speaking a damp squib. More people cared about 'the Death of Superman' than the return of Superman and the marriage of Superman.

    Let's also keep some things in mind, Mary Jane in the '80s knew Peter's identity and when she and Peter got married she was supportive of his double life. In other words the characterization that Post-Crisis Lois Lane has...that's basically borrowing from, or following on from '80s Mary Jane. So Mary Jane is far more the defining and original and innovative figure so much so that Post-80s Lois Lane resembles MJ more than hers, kind of like a vampire feeding on the young. Post-Crisis Lois Lane also became a light-heared brunette with reddish hair (see the covers of Funeral for a Friend) and kind of looked like "keeping up with the MJs" (at least until STAS came with Timm-Dana Delany's Lois which led to the purple-eyes and black hair look that's now her default). So why is it such a big deal that MJ becomes a reporter when Lois borrowed far more substantially from her in the past.

    A lot of people don't like the idea of pitting MJ and Lois and so on. I accept that but again there's a contingent of writers and fans (Roger Stern, Karl Kessel) who support the Superman-Lois marriage but denounce Spider-Man and MJ, and I think this whole "MJ is a reporter like Lois" stems from the same sense of misplaced inferiority. So I think it's useful to push that back.

    Spider-Man is a far more lucrative property than Superman, his merchandise sells more, his movies have made more money, his games are better, and in general there are more great Spider-Man stories and great runs than there are in the case of Superman. So let's not act like we are little leagues anymore.
    I give you credit on that mechandaising cause DCs mismanagement of the character not being as popular as beforem but Superman still sells. Even if he doesn't have the exposure that Batman and Spider-man have.so there is something there. But we can discuss that on the Superman forum

  5. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    That's probably because Peter isn't a reporter but a photograph and has a different dynamic with his boss than Clark has with Perry.
    Heh, Peter was the Bugle's Jimmy Olsen. Weird stuff even happens to him...

    I will say that MJ being a reporter seems to be a disservice to her character a bit. Lois Lane is such an influential female love interest that she inspired a lot of clones (the mentioned Vicki Vale, Iris West, etc) and even characters like MJ inevitably have to become similar to Lois sometimes. Which is funny as we were just talking about animated Lana Lang taking from Mary Jane.

  6. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As long as Spider-Man outsells Superman who cares. Give enough time and people will associate the girlfriend reporter with MJ over Lois.

    There's never been a good Superman game, in a great Spider-Man PS4 game you got to see the girlfriend reporter archetype and it's Mary Jane, and you play as her. So Mary Jane has defined that in the videogame medium in a way Lois never has and likely never will (if the upcoming Suicide Squad game by Rocksteady set in Metropolis is any indication).
    Lois Lane is a more iconic character than Mary Jane. A video game series ain't gonna change decades of media adaptations that have influenced multiple generations. There's literally a statue erected of Lois Lane.

    Mary Jane is also portrayed inconsistently across media, and the more recognizable/influential interpretations of the character portray her as an actress.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-24-2020 at 10:06 PM.

  7. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    How do you guys feel about "Lois Lane"Mary Jane that has been a bit dominant in media so far?
    At best, I think it's just a lazy way of working Mary Jane into the action.

    At worst, it comes across as a misguided attempt to "fix" Mary Jane because Peter shouldn't date a model/actress or because there's something "wrong" with MJ's more traditionally feminine occupation. It just misses the point entirely.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-24-2020 at 10:24 PM.

  8. #1013
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Lois Lane is a more iconic character than Mary Jane.
    Thor Is She Though.jpg

    A video game series ain't gonna change decades of media adaptations that have influenced multiple generations.
    "decades of media adaptations" needs a big rain check.

    There's never been a good Superman game. The only successful video game with Superman in it is the one called Injustice Gods Among Us where he's an evil dictator, and Lois doesn't show up in the games and gets killed offscreen and is the trigger for Superman turning evil. Zack Snyder's Superman movies again center on Lois being the stopper that prevents Superman from becoming a dictator. That's what Lois is in the most prominent recent adaptations of Superman. Not a girl-reporter but basically a woman in a relationship with a borderline psychopath (in the most clinical sense in that Superman can flip from one extreme to another, i.e. cross a borderline. Before that, there was the TV Show Smallville, where Lois showed up in later seasons and the early seasons focused on Lana Lang and a new character (played by an actress involved in a sex trafficking cult...which is what Smallville is known for today). Since she didn't show up in the early seasons (which had the highest ratings on the show), Smallville didn't do her any credit. There's Superman Returns which was failure. Before that, what's there? I guess the Lois and Clark show, I suppose. Superman the Animated Series was great but there's not been a major Superman cartoon since then. She's appeared in these direct to video animated movies but that only has a small audience.

    So I don't think it's the case that Lois Lane's stock has been so high and defining very recently.

    There's literally a statue erected of Lois Lane.
    "Statues are a pigeon's best friend".

    Mary Jane is also portrayed inconsistently across media, and the more recognizable/influential interpretations of the character portray her as an actress.
    She's portrayed having a lot of different jobs and has a lot of different jobs historically and in the comics, and in adaptations.

  9. #1014
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean, Lois has never had a "Michelle Jones" situation, so I think that definitely works in her favor as far as iconic consistency is concerned...and she wasn't completely replaced in the movies like in the ASM films.
    "decades of media adaptations" needs a big rain check.

    There's never been a good Superman game. The only successful video game with Superman in it is the one called Injustice Gods Among Us where he's an evil dictator, and Lois doesn't show up in the games and gets killed offscreen and is the trigger for Superman turning evil. Zack Snyder's Superman movies again center on Lois being the stopper that prevents Superman from becoming a dictator. That's what Lois is in the most prominent recent adaptations of Superman. Not a girl-reporter but basically a woman in a relationship with a borderline psychopath (in the most clinical sense in that Superman can flip from one extreme to another, i.e. cross a borderline. Before that, there was the TV Show Smallville, where Lois showed up in later seasons and the early seasons focused on Lana Lang and a new character (played by an actress involved in a sex trafficking cult...which is what Smallville is known for today). Since she didn't show up in the early seasons (which had the highest ratings on the show), Smallville didn't do her any credit. There's Superman Returns which was failure. Before that, what's there? I guess the Lois and Clark show, I suppose. Superman the Animated Series was great but there's not been a major Superman cartoon since then. She's appeared in these direct to video animated movies but that only has a small audience.

    So I don't think it's the case that Lois Lane's stock has been so high and defining very recently.
    Erica Durance's Lois was one of the highpoints of Smallville, and on-top of that there's Elizabeth Tulloch's Lois in the Arrowverse, and Lois in various Superman animated films.
    She's portrayed having a lot of different jobs and has a lot of different jobs historically and in the comics, and in adaptations.
    Acting and modeling are pretty much her main jobs.

  10. #1015
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, Lois has never had a "Michelle Jones" situation,
    Lana Lang was originally her "Michelle Jones" situation. The reason why Lana exists is because Superboy was taking off but they realized that they can't introduce Lois before Clark gets to Metropolis and Superboy means that Clark has to be in Smallville, so they came up with Lana Lang -- same initials as a "Lois but Smallvile" similar to Michelle have the same initials as MJ.

    so I think that definitely works in her favor as far as iconic consistency is concerned...and she wasn't completely replaced in the movies like in the ASM films.
    She was replaced as love interest by Annette O'Toole's Lana in Superman III (hence the gag about her playing Martha Kent in Smallville). And then Superman Returns had her as a cold, tsundere babymama to deadbeat Superman which didn't help her popularity nor make that movie popular for that matter. So yeah, she's been consistently shown as out of reach to Superman. Snyder's Superman and Lois is surprisingly an exception (and for all the flaws I like that sex scene in Batman V. Superman in the tub) but again those movies didn't take, and they are the first Superman movies that aren't primarily romances.

    Acting and modeling are pretty much her main jobs.
    The thing about Mary Jane is that she's a person first rather than a job. She's not tied to one thing. She's been a model (originally entry-level), actress (Broadway to TV to film), nightclub owner, businesswoman, a psychology student in college, and a reporter.

    Whereas Lois Lane is always attached to the hip with the Daily Planet. You can't imagine her as being anything other than a reporter. That to me is a weakness not a strength.

  11. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So I don't think it's the case that Lois Lane's stock has been so high and defining very recently.
    Compared to Mary Jane? Who hasn't appeared in a Live Action feature film since 2007 and has only ever been portrayed by one actress (unless you count the weird MJ homage in the MCU.)

    MJ...who is lucky to have a small cameo in Marvel's Spider-man cartoon and ITSV.

    Mary Jane has a successful video game, film franchise, and cartoon show, I'll give you that.

    But Lois Lane has Margot Kidder, Amy Adams, Teri Hatcher, Kate Bosworth, Erica Durance, etc. and that's just live action. Now throw in those multiple DTV films and cartoon appearances (Fleischer, STAS, etc.) Her influence is multigenerational. A couple games won't erode that.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-24-2020 at 11:03 PM.

  12. #1017
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    @Revolutionary Jack If Injustice and the Snyder movies* were the only takes on Lois you'd have a point. But she has been in several movies and t.v. shows, most of which have been well received by most audiences regardless of how you personally feel about them. MJ's depictions in modern media were divisive at best up until Spectacular Spider-Man and PS4 Spider-Man.

    It's fine if you like MJ more than Lois but it's absurd to pretend her stock is higher.

    And I have no issue with MJ being a reporter either just in case you want to accuse me of being a Lois shill who hates others who horn in on her territory.


    * Your take on Lois and Clark's relationship in the Snyder movies is also inaccurate.

  13. #1018
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Whereas Lois Lane is always attached to the hip with the Daily Planet. You can't imagine her as being anything other than a reporter. That to me is a weakness not a strength.
    Same could be said for a lot of other characters. Not sure why that's a problem.
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  14. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Same could be said for a lot of other characters. Not sure why that's a problem.
    I'm sure there are plenty of people who would say that MJ not being anything other than Peter's girlfriend/wife is a weakness but her fans (among whom I count myself) would say otherwise.

    Saying that Lois is a weaker character than MJ because she has a consistent job is disingenuous, to put it mildly.

  15. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm sure there are plenty of people who would say that MJ not being anything other than Peter's girlfriend/wife is a weakness but her fans (among whom I count myself) would say otherwise.
    I think that's the general impression that people get from watching various media adaptations, which I think is a disservice to her character.

    MJ pursuing a career in the entertainment industry and the arts is a big part of her character. Remove that and you lose much of the character's identity and individuality.

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