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  1. #1081
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He quipped across the entire trilogy. That's better than Holland by his second movie and he's supposed to be based off the biggest motormouth Spider-Man .
    If we are using Tom Holland as a measure lot of things get a pass.

    Look I am getting frustrated by people here having a lot of impossible double standards where basically every appearance of Mary Jane is graded on a disproportionate scale. We haven't gotten a totally accurate and totally faithful take on Mary Jane across adaptations, but that applies to practically everything. Doctor Octopus hasn't been shown accurately, not has Peter Parker, leave alone Harry Osborn or Flash Thompson. We don't have an accurate take on Gwen Stacy either.

    Even Jameson...JK Simmons is perfectly cast yes, but all he was in the Raimi movies was a caricature and we never got the deeper shades that makes him such a complex and fascinating character. The end of the last MCU Spider-Man makes him some Alex Jones style huckster when that's not at all what JJJ is intended to be.

    This reminds me of this moment from The Venture Bros. At 0:40 seconds.

  2. #1082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    1) The headband is brown in color, to sort of match her hair. It's not a black headband, the kind that wore Gwen wore.

    2) She wears a green cardigan, not a beige trenchcoat. That's what Gwen wore when she died.

    3) Mary Jane has worn headbands in the comics a few times in her history. Like in ASM Annual #19 by Louise Simonson.
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/c2...992e872d82.jpg

    4) The context of this scene has nothing to do with Gwen Stacy and her death. So it doesn't even make sense as an allusion, why allude to a costume worn by another character in a moment that has nothing to do with the costume in that famous scene.
    Ah, but that headband has a yellow bow, so clearly not the same!

    Because said character is part of an iconic storyline that was adapted in this film, but was purposefully excluded.

    Anyway, I'm not gonna argue over the exact color of headband or style of coat/cardigan or whether MJ wore something in some little known comic...so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

  3. #1083
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If we are using Tom Holland as a measure lot of things get a pass.

    Look I am getting frustrated by people here having a lot of impossible double standards where basically every appearance of Mary Jane is graded on a disproportionate scale. We haven't gotten a totally accurate and totally faithful take on Mary Jane across adaptations, but that applies to practically everything. Doctor Octopus hasn't been shown accurately, not has Peter Parker, leave alone Harry Osborn or Flash Thompson. We don't have an accurate take on Gwen Stacy either.

    Even Jameson...JK Simmons is perfectly cast yes, but all he was in the Raimi movies was a caricature and we never got the deeper shades that makes him such a complex and fascinating character. The end of the last MCU Spider-Man makes him some Alex Jones style huckster when that's not at all what JJJ is intended to be.

    This reminds me of this moment from The Venture Bros. At 0:40 seconds.
    I mean, we've gotten fairly accurate portrayals for a lot of those characters you mentioned, give or take a few updates or revisions.

    I don't think it's wrong for fans to have certain preferences when it comes to how Mary Jane is portrayed. It just comes with being fans.

  4. #1084
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Ah, but that headband has a yellow bow, so clearly not the same!

    Because said character is part of an iconic storyline that was adapted in this film, but was purposefully excluded.

    Anyway, I'm not gonna argue over the exact color of headband or style of coat/cardigan or whether MJ wore something in some little known comic...so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
    As Sam Raimi made clear, "I liked The Night Gwen Stacy died, but I didn't like the Gwen Stacy character. I liked Mary Jane and Green Goblin". So the main thing he borrowed from that comic was Norman being impaled on the glider. Ask yourself, why would Sam Raimi composite elements from a character he disliked (and whose introduction in the third film he was against) to a character he liked? That makes little sense.

    And ultimately...Raimi's movies riff on comics stuff but remixes it.

    Like visually, he borrows a lot more ideas from ASM#39-40 where Spider-Man and Norman learn each other's identities.

    Like the moment where Green Goblin snares a cable around Spider-Man's waist and flies away at the end of the bridge scene. (around 04:39).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBYW...icer89Slicer89

    is visually a callback to this iconic cover
    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ma...20171229055311

    The battle in that abandoned warehouse at the finale looks a fair bit like the warehouse in ASM#40 which makes sense since the climax of the movie is Peter learning Goblin's identity. Of course ASM#122 also ended in a warehouse but that's Conway likely connecting the last battle between the two to ASM#40.

    So the fact is there's no 1:1 thing in terms of this comic directly being adapted in Raimi's movies. He picked and chose what elements to focus on, and a lot of it is stuff he added and brought in.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-28-2020 at 05:47 PM.

  5. #1085
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    I dont think there has been any adaption that was 1:1 in media. If so how was it received?
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  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So the fact is there's no 1:1 thing in terms of this comic directly being adapted in Raimi's movies. He picked and chose what elements to focus on, and a lot of it is stuff he added and brought in.
    I agree, and I certainly don't fault the Raimi films for not being a 1:1 adaptation. I may not love his interpretation of Mary Jane, and he certainly took liberties with several characters, but overall I think he did a great job of capturing the essence of the source material.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-28-2020 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #1087
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    As a follow-up to the Mary Jane headband thing. There's actually one comic where Mary Jane does wear a Gwen-style black headband.

    It's the 2007 SILVER SURFER:REQUIEM, which is set in an AU where Silver Surfer is facing his final days. It's written by J. Michael Straczynski and the art is by Esad Ribic.

    Esad Ribic is known for his work with Jason Aaron (The God Butcher) and Hickman (Secret Wars 2015) among many others and he has a kind of arty style.

    So MJ looks pretty odd and somewhat Gwen-like in this comic, and the coloring of her hair looks blondish in parts. Still this is a great comic and all-time cool moment.
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh3DrltW...jpg&name=large

  8. #1088
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    On the Spider-Man 2 DVD/BluRay, it is specifically admitted that the Rami movies' take on Mary Jane was a composite between her comics counterpart and Gwen. The specific ratio can be discussed, but it's been established for years that Raimi MJ did borrow from Gwen. Wouldn't be the last time, either; the Gwen we see in Spider-Man 3 borrowed some of comics MJ's traits and in the ASM movies, Gwen had way more in common with Ultimate MJ then any of her comics counterparts.
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  9. #1089
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    On the Spider-Man 2 DVD/BluRay, it is specifically admitted that the Rami movies' take on Mary Jane was a composite between her comics counterpart and Gwen.
    Did Raimi himself say this in an interview? Or did any of the writers? Or was it some trivia note somewhere in the DVD.

    The specific ratio can be discussed, but it's been established for years that Raimi MJ did borrow from Gwen.
    No direct quotes at all from any of the screenwriters, producers, creators involved with the movies that I have come across. The only one which addresses it is the one I quoted where Sam Raimi specifically disavows any affinity for Gwen as a character.

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    On the Spider-Man 2 DVD/BluRay, it is specifically admitted that the Rami movies' take on Mary Jane was a composite between her comics counterpart and Gwen. The specific ratio can be discussed, but it's been established for years that Raimi MJ did borrow from Gwen. Wouldn't be the last time, either; the Gwen we see in Spider-Man 3 borrowed some of comics MJ's traits and in the ASM movies, Gwen had way more in common with Ultimate MJ then any of her comics counterparts.
    And most definitely Liz Allan. I suppose the comparison to Betty is a bit more debatable. But Betty getting engaged to Ned Leeds while still loving Peter, and Peter alienating Betty despite having feelings for her because of his secret identity is similar to the MJ, John, and Peter dynamic in SM2. The difference being that MJ, unlike Betty, doesn't fear Spider-man, and when she discovers Peter's secret, leaves John at the altar to be with him. The subplot also occured around the Master Planner saga which I'm sure was looked at as reference for SM2.

    Comics MJ was commitment phobic so any engagement prior to Peter would have never happened (not even to Harry Osborn, Zdarsky!)

    So yeah Raimi MJ always struck me as a composite character made up of bits and pieces of MJ, Gwen, Liz, and Betty.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-28-2020 at 11:32 PM.

  11. #1091
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    And most definitely Liz Allan. I suppose the comparison to Betty is a bit more debatable. But Betty getting engaged to Ned Leeds while still loving Peter, and Peter alienating Betty despite having feelings for her because of his secret identity is similar to the MJ, John, and Peter dynamic in SM2.
    The problem is that by the time Betty and Ned got engaged, Peter had moved on and was in a relationship with Gwen. Betty and Ned never got engaged until it was totally quits between them.

    So this dog doesn't walk. It doesn't make even the necessary amount of sense to pass as a comparison.

    The subplot also occured around the Master Planner saga which I'm sure was looked at as reference for SM2.
    There's no radioactive isotope that can cure Aunt May's health in Spider-Man 2.

    Comics MJ was commitment phobic so any engagement prior to Peter would have never happened
    This part is true. But then again it's super-obvious that in SM-2 her entire relationship with John was largely an attempt to make Peter jealous and put him on notice and own his feelings which he spent the entirety of the sequel flip-flopping and irritating her about.

    So yeah Raimi MJ always struck me as a composite character made up of bits and pieces of MJ, Gwen, Liz, and Betty.
    And I guarantee you that nobody behind the scenes seriously jotted down and mapped this on a grid -- "In this scene she's Betty, in that scene she's Gwen, and then only in these scenes she's Mary Jane". Nobody behind the making of these movies consulted the original comics like it was the US Constitution to make sure everything fit in. They interpreted the material like a mainstream Hollywood story drawing references from stuff outside comic books, other romance stories, other "Boy Meets Girl" stories. (In the process, they did make the movie versions of Peter-MJ a more conventional romance than the way it played out in the comics, but that's another story).

    Ultimately it's an adaptation and you are supposed to approach the character of Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane as she appears on the screen, as a single entity. I can tell you that Kirsten Dunst herself only ever looked at the screenplay and played the character as written down.

  12. #1092
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Came across some comments I missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Edit: as far as recasting goes, I think MJ should be bigger than the actress who plays her.
    The only reason Mary Jane Watson, the Marvel IP and trademark, gets to be bigger than any actress is because the people who play her and represent her and adapt her add value to the character. Every actress that plays Mary Jane in any particular adaptation is a distinct creation and version. And each actress owns that version of Mary Jane. The same is true of any version of Peter Parker.

    Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies depended on Kirsten Dunst playing Mary Jane, and once she was cast and played a big part in the first two movies and became one half of the biggest romance in movies since Titanic. I don't think you can say she doesn't have ownership of the character. Having an actress like Kirsten Dunst, a talented performer and star who appeared in many independent and quirky movies, also gave more prestige and value to the role of Mary Jane Watson. She went to win prizes at Cannes after all. Whereas Lois Lane (with the exception of Amy Adams in the time of the Snyder movies) has always been cast and played in live-action by minor actresses and minor players of that era. Margot Kidder for instance was a minor character actress who appeared in genre movies and certainly wasn't near the top tier of young actresses in her time (whereas Kirsten Dunst absolutely was when she appeared in Raimi's films). Part of the reason a character like Joker is so big and prestigious is because he's been cast and played consistently by Oscar nominees and Oscar winners, and prominent actors. Those actors added value to the character of Joker.

    The same principle also applies in comics...Mary Jane Watson is a major character because the best and greatest Spider-Man writers and artists have defined and redefined her time and time again -- Stan Lee, Gerry Conway, Roger Stern, Tom Defalco, J. M. DeMatteis, David Michelinie, J. Michael Straczynski, Paul Jenkins, Mark Millar, Matt Fraction, Brian Michael Bendis, Nick Spencer, Tom Taylor, John Romita Sr., Gil Kane, Ross Andru, JRJR, Ron Frenz, Mike Zeck, Todd MacFarlane, Mark Bagley, JRJR (again!), and so on have all defined and redefined her. MJ isn't bigger than any actress who plays her...she's only as big as the writers and creators who worked and developed her.

  13. #1093
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    ...Are you guys ok? Anyway. MJ showed up in the last season of Marvel's Spiderman right?

  14. #1094
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    ...Are you guys ok? Anyway. MJ showed up in the last season of Marvel's Spiderman right?
    Yes, which you can now watch on Disney + .

    Of course, I think the total amount of her screentime could fill about a half-hour .

  15. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem is that by the time Betty and Ned got engaged, Peter had moved on and was in a relationship with Gwen. Betty and Ned never got engaged until it was totally quits between them.
    That's actually not entirely true. The love triangle with Betty and Ned occurs well before Gwen even makes her first appearance in issue 31. Betty announces the proposal in ASM #30 (at the start of the Master Planner Saga). She tries to tell Peter that she loves him more than Ned, but Peter pushes Betty away fearing that she won't accept his secret ID. Peter and Betty both love eachother, but Spider-man keeps them apart. And Betty, much like MJ in the movies, is left confused by Peter's waffling behavior.

    Gwen and Peter had an odd relationship under Ditko, and a full fledged romance didn't start until several issues after Romita took over. And then the Betty-Peter romance was forgotten, and they became "just friends" with Betty happily engaged.

    It's very clear that the Raimi films didn't adhere to the comics like the U.S. constitution. Nor that they mapped everything out as such. But the Raimi films did reference, draw influence from, and remix a variety of storylines from the comics.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 11-29-2020 at 10:28 AM.

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