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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    These developers seemed to have come pretty close to realizing The Flash in a video game:

    Didn't know about this. Thank you for sharing. The developers there seem to have had the right idea and a sense of what problems to tackle. Real shame it didn't get made.

    The bit about Flash moving so fast that everyone around him are like moving statues versus giving a gamer a sense of being super-fast is one of the issues of doing a game with super-speed.

    As with Superman, I think an open-world game with Flash is the wrong way to go. It should be level-based and linear albeit with full freedom on how to traverse and achieve goals and objectives along the way. The map will never be big enough to accomodate that sense of super-speed and after you race and flit around the map a few times covering everything it will get boring. Stuff like Fast Travel with Flash defeats the purpose of giving you a sense of actually travelling from one city to the next in a few minutes. To do it right you need to render and build a space across multiple cities, all empty stretches and you need to have the character run across that vast distance in a minute...which in terms of animation and processing will need a beast of a machine to get right.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Eh. Give me my open world RPG sandboxes with so many side quests I never have to finish the main story.

    I'd take a PS4 Spider-Man type of approach, or really anything if it actually captured the Superman experience, but I want a Superman game I can sink literally hundreds of hours into.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I feel this is very relevant to this thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Eh. Give me my open world RPG sandboxes with so many side quests I never have to finish the main story.

    I'd take a PS4 Spider-Man type of approach, or really anything if it actually captured the Superman experience, but I want a Superman game I can sink literally hundreds of hours into.
    On a conceptual level I think the Open World of Spider-Man PS4 is probably the most appropriate for Superman.

  4. #19
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Pretty big fan of God of War director Cory Barlog's idea from a few years back.

    https://www.gameinformer.com/pax-201...man-video-game

    Then I really came back to an idea that I think everyone here was touching on. Superman was created at a time when we needed some idealistic, perfect person to aspire to, which is why he is so flawless. Like, literally, he almost has no flaws. And he’s extremely hard to work with when you’re talking at an interactive level. The one flaw, and I don’t think it’s really a flaw, it’s just who we are as human beings, is this idea of caring. I think the best thing you can do with a Superman game is to kind of explore the psychology of what it would be like to be a person who slowly beings to realize that he can’t save everybody.
    You begin the game and you are able to hear a little bit. Maybe he’s a little bit younger, or maybe he just started a little bit later in his life, but the idea is you begin to hear, as the player… help. You’re not helping Superman. You’re not Superman yet. Nobody knows about Superman. But when you start helping people you build up a reputation and then you start to hear, “Help, Superman.” And you start to hear more of these 'help Superman!' voices from all around. As the game progresses, as you do these sort of good deeds, more and more people are aware of you, they start following you on twitter – @superman – and everyone starts asking for help and this is where it really starts to unravel.

    As a Kryptonian and a human being a little bit, he has no capacity to sort of manage this. I don’t know if there is a form of brain where you sort of have no filter. Where you literally take everything in the world in? That’s who he is. He is taking everything in. When he chooses, or when you choose to save anyone in this game… Let’s say there are four people who need to be saved. At your best moment as Superman, you can save two. That means two were not saved and that weighs on him. It’s not the people that he saved. It’s the two people that he didn’t save, the crimes he couldn’t stop, and there is suffering that comes from that.
    The idea of this is, as you get to the beginning of the third act, you realize, as Superman, that the brute force method of fisticuffs, the idea of constantly trying to chase your tail to save people individually, is not working. You have to figure out a different way because the ultimate goal, psychologically, to maintain some kind of sanity, is to actually try and save everybody. It’s a great, idealistic, fantastic concept, but fairly impossible.
    So, the third act, Superman runs for president... of the world. I’m talking like Tommy 'Tiny' Lister from The Fifth Element who was like president of Earth. He is, through politics, going to bring everybody together. Doing good acts that actually reach out not to just one person, but influencing everybody in there own way to become Superman. They’re not flying around, but they’re actually having an effect on the world around them. Positively changing things. And, you know, the third act is just him filling out paperwork, cutting ribbons, doing speeches – I’m just kidding. The idea would be that he needs to reach out further, save more people, but really it’s the teach a person to fish, instead of constantly bringing them fish individually. Helping us all by helping us help ourselves.

    I would not have him flying. I think he would have his ability of speed so you would feel like you’re playing a Flash game at the beginning. And I think for me that loop would start you out and you wouldn’t be able to fight anybody. You would be taking care of things that are less sort of fisticuffs so that you start to get your feet wet, and then the first time a baddie appears, somebody who is kind of an antagonistic force… you would feel just as uneasy as Superman would be. This would feel more like an origin story, like a Spider-Man 1 kind of feel that he is just figuring this out.
    It's an incredibly fascinating idea. And if I'm understanding him right, the implied gameplay loop here is that as Clark's powers grow then so do his responsibilities, but he also needs to get more creative in how he allocates his time when and how he saves people. The concept of not throwing a single punch till your first really strong bad dude comes around is very interesting in how it tries its best to put you in the shoes of a being who has never even considered the possibility that he may one day need to throw a punch at another living creature.

    With the main goal of the gameplay being figuring out how to help the people help themselves, and continue to take on greater power and responsibility as President of Earth, I'm reminded of both Bendis' run and the game Death Stranding.

    And the thing is, if the goal is to make you FEEL like Superman then any game that doesn't give you that feeling and pressure of basically being an on-call Doctor fails. Anything that's just a combat sim or carefree sandbox misses the point. Being Superman isn't God Mode Sim: The Game even though most assume it is. Playing Death Stranding and seeing how the direction of the game marries narrative and gameplay so effectively that you genuinely get knots in your stomach every time you take a rough tumble and your package gets a ding has really given me a new appreciation for the concept of a role-playing game. The game even insentivises online cooperation and general selflessness/helpfulness in a very elegant way that ties directly back to the narrative.

    And I think that's in part where Barlog's mind is at. Getting into the head of what it would be like to be Clark is key, and that would mean players not just flying around and dicking around.

    Like, say Death Stranding is a template, then if the primary gameplay loop in this hypothetical Superman game is more power = more responsibility and more people to save, then maybe you can "plot out" your, I guess strategies, for who you'll save and how for the most efficient rescues like how you plot out your trails in Death Stranding? People having the potential to get realistically hurt on your watch, and unpredictable obstetrical and opposition getting in your way and making you less effective or creating new dimensions to your tasks could really work.

    Eventually, like Superman himself, you'll be frustrated by the time fighting a villain eats up, and outside of the unavoidable confrontations (boss fights) you'll likely be doing whatever you can to out fox your foes and get back to saving people.

    Personally, I'd also add in a more "on rails" Clark Kent section (compared to the open world Superman stuff) that played more the game Detroit. Over in that section you build up to Clark deciding to run for President of Earth.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Eh. Give me my open world RPG sandboxes with so many side quests I never have to finish the main story.

    I'd take a PS4 Spider-Man type of approach, or really anything if it actually captured the Superman experience, but I want a Superman game I can sink literally hundreds of hours into.
    A Superman Immersive Sim with multiple pathways and different approaches based on your use of powers and assessment of terrain can provide you hours and hours of replay value. And satisfying too since the game wouldn't be that long to finish and then you can go back and try other approaches and see what changes and so on.

    An open-world game is not the only, nor is it the best way to get value for money/time. Dishonored and Dishonored 2 for instance is practically a new game every time you play it since there's so much to try, to play with, to interact with. Another option for Superman is...Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Odyssey, I guess you can add Super Mario Galaxy too. Mario in the Mushroom Kingdom is not far from Superman on a Yellow Sun Powered Rock. To him the world might as well be made of cardboard. Both the Mario games are open-ish worlds that are also primarily level based and based on how you use your abilities, you can replay each level, revisit each level and get something new out of it every time. Designing levels gives you the option of not being constrained by open world sandbox borders, you can do themed levels and so on. One level has Superman fighting an earthquake, it's shaking everything around, so Superman dives in and saves everyone, then goes into the crust or whatever to fix the tectonic plates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Pretty big fan of God of War director Cory Barlog's idea from a few years back.
    That's a great idea for a game just not sure if it's a good idea for a mainstream Superman game. If you do a Superman game you have to commit to it, that means people are going to want to have full access to powers from the start. Stuff like Superman not flying and so on isn't going to work. The Arkham Knight game had the tagline, "Be the Batman", a Superman game needs to convey "Be Superman". Likewise people said of the PS4 game that it made them feel like Spider-Man.

  6. #21
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think from a narrative and conceptual standpoint Barlog's ideas are really interesting, but I don't think it would satisfy people's expectations for playing a Superman game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a great idea for a game just not sure if it's a good idea for a mainstream Superman game. If you do a Superman game you have to commit to it, that means people are going to want to have full access to powers from the start. Stuff like Superman not flying and so on isn't going to work. The Arkham Knight game had the tagline, "Be the Batman", a Superman game needs to convey "Be Superman". Likewise people said of the PS4 game that it made them feel like Spider-Man.
    Or get quicker access to his full powerset in the case that they set up at the beginning of the game Superman loses some of them at the start by some plot contrivance only to regain more of his powers over the course of the game.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think from a narrative and conceptual standpoint Barlog's ideas are really interesting, but I don't think it would satisfy people's expectations for playing a Superman game.

    Or get quicker access to his full powerset in the case that they set up at the beginning of the game Superman loses some of them at the start by some plot contrivance only to regain more of his powers over the course of the game.
    Superman isn't Superman all the time. He's also Clark Kent, and when he's Clark he always needs to find a "phone booth" (understood as a metaphor for place to change in/out of costume). So you can start the game as Clark covering some event when a Giant Robot attacks. Of course even as Clark he still has his powers, so you can use that to introduce super-hearing, X-Ray vision, and other senses. Likewise, when Clark is making a change, you can find a way to use his powers indirectly or passively. The animated movie of All-Star Superman has that scene where Clark is with Luthor in prison and during the entire sequence Clark uses his super-powers indirectly, like stamping the floor of the foot softly but with enough to break it and them to fall down to a safer area.

    So you can do tutorial and character introduction there.

    The PS4 game of Spider-Man really communicated the importance of the Peter Parker identity by showing many sequences where you're Peter and blending in, and it communicated the differences between being a superhero in an open world and an ordinary person there with the sequences where you play as Peter and so have to keep quiet and the MJ and Miles sequences. Like the bit where Miles gets those medicines and has to escape Rhino in the same yard where you come back and fight them as Spider-Man really gave a sense of what having superpowers means in that world. And that gave it novelty over the Batman Arkham games where you are Batman all the time in a Gotham infested with bad guys to beat up and as great and entertaining as that is, it's not something you should extend to every character.

    Clark Kent sequences in a Superman game is all about using his super-senses to collect information and suss stuff out, like he uses his hearing to see what their heart rate is like to test if they are lying or not. So you can do LA Noire or Witcher III dialogue stuff in those sequences.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-07-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I think it's just hard to get flying to feel as exhilarating as web-swinging and gliding/grappling, because those are firstly affected by gravity where Superman isn't, and secondly they're easier to design than the complete freedom of flight. Most fun I've ever had flying in a game is the "NiGHTS into Dreams" series, and that flight isn't even in 3-D space!

    I think they should make a Superman Telltale game. I think that alone would scratch my Superman game itch. Less about playing as Superman, more about making the kinds of choices Clark/Superman has to make.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superman isn't Superman all the time. He's also Clark Kent, and when he's Clark he always needs to find a "phone booth" (understood as a metaphor for place to change in/out of costume). So you can start the game as Clark covering some event when a Giant Robot attacks. Of course even as Clark he still has his powers, so you can use that to introduce super-hearing, X-Ray vision, and other senses. Likewise, when Clark is making a change, you can find a way to use his powers indirectly or passively. The animated movie of All-Star Superman has that scene where Clark is with Luthor in prison and during the entire sequence Clark uses his super-powers indirectly, like stamping the floor of the foot softly but with enough to break it and them to fall down to a safer area.

    So you can do tutorial and character introduction there.

    The PS4 game of Spider-Man really communicated the importance of the Peter Parker identity by showing many sequences where you're Peter and blending in, and it communicated the differences between being a superhero in an open world and an ordinary person there with the sequences where you play as Peter and so have to keep quiet and the MJ and Miles sequences. Like the bit where Miles gets those medicines and has to escape Rhino in the same yard where you come back and fight them as Spider-Man really gave a sense of what having superpowers means in that world. And that gave it novelty over the Batman Arkham games where you are Batman all the time in a Gotham infested with bad guys to beat up and as great and entertaining as that is, it's not something you should extend to every character.

    Clark Kent sequences in a Superman game is all about using his super-senses to collect information and suss stuff out, like he uses his hearing to see what their heart rate is like to test if they are lying or not. So you can do LA Noire or Witcher III dialogue stuff in those sequences.
    I think any Superman game worth it's tights would probably have the Daily Planet as a hub that you can interact with as Clark Kent. If there were other instances outside of that where we get to be Clark Kent doing his job as a reporter, all the better.

    The Arkham games used Bruce Wayne as much as you could really use in the type of game genre it was. Telltale Games found a way to make Bruce Waymne much more vital to the narrative, but they're more story-centric then action centric.

  10. #25
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's a great idea for a game just not sure if it's a good idea for a mainstream Superman game. If you do a Superman game you have to commit to it, that means people are going to want to have full access to powers from the start. Stuff like Superman not flying and so on isn't going to work. The Arkham Knight game had the tagline, "Be the Batman", a Superman game needs to convey "Be Superman". Likewise people said of the PS4 game that it made them feel like Spider-Man.
    I see what you're saying but I don't agree. I think if the goal is to "be Superman" and that needs to be at the forefront then this is one of the stronger ideas for it.

    He's saying that you still need to be a video game at the end of the day so there must be a gameplay loop of some sort, and there must be a sense of progression for the player beyond just getting to the next cut scene. In my opinion, the uninspired and very un-Superman way to go about that would be to give him all his powers from the start, but you unlock different combos and different special moves. That's fine for Spider-Man, God Of War, or even Batman because they at a baseline are either known for combat in some form or they have upgradable tech/weapons not always on their person.

    But that's never really been the main reason for Superman. He doesn't operate on that progression scale after he gets his of his powers. People felt like Spider-Man in the PS4 game because his visually distinctive combat, web swinging, and gadgets are in-built into the character, and those are all work on a pretty conventional upgrade scale. Same goes for Batman. Having new gadgets dropped in for you as the situations call for them is very simple for a gameplay loop, and that's an in-built sense of progression the character has. He's always upgrading his stuff.

    The most well known (over a decade of Smallville) sense of progression Superman has is his ever increasing power and scope of responsibility. And as a game you need an actionable gameplay loop and progression scale. That's it. And honestly, Barlog is pretty vague with the idea, so you could very well start start flying 45 to 50 minutes in.

    It's the second game that would be truly hard and out there because you'd then have to start with a fully powered Superman and a Superman who is president of a planet. I suppose you can split the game between Jon Kent Superboy and President Superman?

    Superman's a tough nut to crack for a video game if you're looking to make something that's more than just passable imo.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #26
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Superman isn't Superman all the time. He's also Clark Kent, and when he's Clark he always needs to find a "phone booth" (understood as a metaphor for place to change in/out of costume). So you can start the game as Clark covering some event when a Giant Robot attacks. Of course even as Clark he still has his powers, so you can use that to introduce super-hearing, X-Ray vision, and other senses. Likewise, when Clark is making a change, you can find a way to use his powers indirectly or passively. The animated movie of All-Star Superman has that scene where Clark is with Luthor in prison and during the entire sequence Clark uses his super-powers indirectly, like stamping the floor of the foot softly but with enough to break it and them to fall down to a safer area.

    So you can do tutorial and character introduction there.

    Clark Kent sequences in a Superman game is all about using his super-senses to collect information and suss stuff out, like he uses his hearing to see what their heart rate is like to test if they are lying or not. So you can do LA Noire or Witcher III dialogue stuff in those sequences.
    Okay but then what?

    Where's the sense of progression for the player beyond getting to the next cut scene? What's makes one player's Superman 4 hours into the game different from another player's Superman who is 1 hour in?

    You can answer those questions very easily in the Batman games, Spider-Man PS4, and Barlog's God of War. In fact, you can answer that question in just about every modern game there is (that includes the Witcher 3) because the gameplay loop and sense of progression are how games work.

    You bring up LA Noire, but that game is actually a bit more comparable to Detroit: Become Human, Beyond Two Souls, or Heavy Rain in these sense that it's using gameplay and interactivity as fairly incidental to the main point: the story. This means a fairly linear and guided gameplay loop with now actual calculable addition or progression to the character beyond the events of the story.

    And I'm personally super ok with settling for what is essentially an interactive movie like LA Noire, Life is Strange, Detroit, and Beyond Two Souls for a Superman game. I think that could be a lot of fun though with little to no replay factor depending on if you have more than one ending or a choice system.

    But if the idea is to actually make a game that stands shoulder to shoulder with the Batman games or Spider-Man PS4 games as a capital G GAME that you can just get lost and engrossed in for it's fun and depth of gameplay, then I don't think those movie-games are the way to go for the whole game.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  12. #27
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I see what you're saying but I don't agree. I think if the goal is to "be Superman" and that needs to be at the forefront then this is one of the stronger ideas for it.

    He's saying that you still need to be a video game at the end of the day so there must be a gameplay loop of some sort, and there must be a sense of progression for the player beyond just getting to the next cut scene. In my opinion, the uninspired and very un-Superman way to go about that would be to give him all his powers from the start, but you unlock different combos and different special moves. That's fine for Spider-Man, God Of War, or even Batman because they at a baseline are either known for combat in some form or they have upgradable tech/weapons not always on their person.

    But that's never really been the main reason for Superman. He doesn't operate on that progression scale after he gets his of his powers. People felt like Spider-Man in the PS4 game because his visually distinctive combat, web swinging, and gadgets are in-built into the character, and those are all work on a pretty conventional upgrade scale. Same goes for Batman. Having new gadgets dropped in for you as the situations call for them is very simple for a gameplay loop, and that's an in-built sense of progression the character has. He's always upgrading his stuff.

    The most well known (over a decade of Smallville) sense of progression Superman has is his ever increasing power and scope of responsibility. And as a game you need an actionable gameplay loop and progression scale. That's it. And honestly, Barlog is pretty vague with the idea, so you could very well start start flying 45 to 50 minutes in.

    It's the second game that would be truly hard and out there because you'd then have to start with a fully powered Superman and a Superman who is president of a planet. I suppose you can split the game between Jon Kent Superboy and President Superman?

    Superman's a tough nut to crack for a video game if you're looking to make something that's more than just passable imo.
    It's funny you mention Smallville because that approach seems more Smallville to me then full-on Superman.

    I think combos and being able to upgrade his abilities would be what most people would expect. I don't think they would start him off with every single power and ability at the forefront but probably find a reason within each hour of the game to introduce a new one into gameplay, how it's used, and then let players go wild with it and upgrade it at their leisure.

    I don't think the developing sense of responsibility would go any further then just maybe different crime or civilian rescue missions as you go through the game, since developers are likely not going to go beyond Superman protecting Metropolis in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Okay but then what?

    Where's the sense of progression for the player beyond getting to the next cut scene? What's makes one player's Superman 4 hours into the game different from another player's Superman who is 1 hour in?

    You can answer those questions very easily in the Batman games, Spider-Man PS4, and Barlog's God of War. In fact, you can answer that question in just about every modern game there is (that includes the Witcher 3) because the gameplay loop and sense of progression are how games work.

    You bring up LA Noire, but that game is actually a bit more comparable to Detroit: Become Human, Beyond Two Souls, or Heavy Rain in these sense that it's using gameplay and interactivity as fairly incidental to the main point: the story. This means a fairly linear and guided gameplay loop with now actual calculable addition or progression to the character beyond the events of the story.

    And I'm personally super ok with settling for what is essentially an interactive movie like LA Noire, Life is Strange, Detroit, and Beyond Two Souls for a Superman game. I think that could be a lot of fun though with little to no replay factor depending on if you have more than one ending or a choice system.

    But if the idea is to actually make a game that stands shoulder to shoulder with the Batman games or Spider-Man PS4 games as a capital G GAME that you can just get lost and engrossed in for it's fun and depth of gameplay, then I don't think those movie-games are the way to go for the whole game.
    That kind of gameplay seems more of a fit for Clark Kent then Superman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    He's saying that you still need to be a video game at the end of the day so there must be a gameplay loop of some sort, and there must be a sense of progression for the player beyond just getting to the next cut scene.
    There are games where you start out with the same abilities and skills and use it throughout. Take Super Mario where in Mario '64 you can use the same abilities at the start as at the end, it's solely a question of how the player as a whole has mastered it, the jumps, the double-jumps, the slides and bounces. Uncharted likewise has no loop...you start and end the game with the same abilities, maybe you improve a little bit but that's about it. Then Shadow of the Colossus and Ico likewise.

    I think Superman can be done on those lines. This shouldn't be done like a typical open world game, it should be a story-driven linear level-based action-adventure game, and the levels should be Dishonored-style immersive sim sandboxes where each level has multiple entries and exits and ways to cover the objectives based on your use of powers and options. And each choice you make has overall consequences in terms of stuff you come across, stuff you ignore, and so on. That way you have a game with massive replay value, fun gameplay and something that's substantial in terms of a narrative experience.

    Superman's a tough nut to crack for a video game if you're looking to make something that's more than just passable imo.
    Well then it follows that you shouldn't think in terms of conventions like gameplay loop and progression, you need to think outside the box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Where's the sense of progression for the player beyond getting to the next cut scene? What's makes one player's Superman 4 hours into the game different from another player's Superman who is 1 hour in?
    How much fun they have, hopefully. Fun gameplay and decent narrative will have replay value. Look at Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Odyssey.

    A Superman game should capture the kind of do-anything whimsy of the Mario games, while the levels should be as detailed and filled with variation as a Dishonored game, while having a compelling narrative with characters as charismatic as the Uncharted games and Witcher 3.

    The reason Superman games have failed in the past is that the 2D games and so on have limitations in terms of representing the fantasy of being Superman, while 3D games have been hampered in trying to make Superman into an open-world game and thinking entirely on those lines. When in fact there are other kinds of games out there.

    Linear level-based games have advantages over the open-world in that a level can be as big, wide, and detailed as the story and situation demands, rather than being pre-restricted to a set polygon count as in any open-world game. You can also make sure boss fights are big and scary. For instance, take Spider-Man. Spider-Man the Movie 1 is a linear level-based game while almost every game after has been open-world. People make fun of it for the fact that you swing attached to the sky, but on the other hand it's the only game that has gotten aerial boss-fights right. When you fight Vulture and the Green Goblin across the city you actually feel you are in the city, chasing the bad guys across a space...whereas the PS4 has you fight the Vulture around a power plant which he circles a bunch of times.

    A Superman game should have that sense of scale. As does The Flash and so on. Those characters have powers with a huge scale and dimension and any sandbox you dream up will feel small eventually. Because every sandbox game fences characters in, and that works for human characters, for the most part, as well as Spider-Man and Batman, but not for everyone.

    As for Superman goes, in the words of Cole Porter:
    "Give me land, lots of land, and the starry skies above
    Don't fence me in"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There are games where you start out with the same abilities and skills and use it throughout. Take Super Mario where in Mario '64 you can use the same abilities at the start as at the end, it's solely a question of how the player as a whole has mastered it, the jumps, the double-jumps, the slides and bounces.
    Sure, to an extent. 64 is a platformer where it's primarily just your skill and the reward of beating the level. But even Mario has level specific power ups that the player has earned by beating the previous level. And even without that, the scope of what Mario as a character can do and what he can effect is far less than Superman. His limitations are what allow for a platformer and a game of skill are well time jumps. Superman's isn't even beholden to something as basic as gravity.

    Uncharted likewise has no loop...you start and end the game with the same abilities, maybe you improve a little bit but that's about it.
    No disrespect if you like the game, but I don't feel like it's such a hot take to call Uncharted a really good interactive movie at best, and baby's first Last of Us at it's worst. While it usually has very responsive and tight controls, what you're actually being asked to do with them are fairly rudimentary platforming that doesn't actually progress much in difficulty, and cover based shooting that doesn't take near the level of skill one would assume. In counter to that, Last of Us uses an almost puzzle-like stealth gameplay system, a crafting system, and a equipment management system. It's only real facade is it's hand-to-hand combat platforming, and both are largely cinematic because they have the room to since they main game is so solid.

    Then Shadow of the Colossus and Ico likewise.
    This are basically single use puzzle games as action games. As a more blatant example, Cathryn is much the same. The reward in all of these games in finishing the puzzle and making it to the next one.

    I think Superman can be done on those lines. This shouldn't be done like a typical open world game, it should be a story-driven linear level-based action-adventure game, and the levels should be Dishonored-style immersive sim sandboxes where each level has multiple entries and exits and ways to cover the objectives based on your use of powers and options. And each choice you make has overall consequences in terms of stuff you come across, stuff you ignore, and so on. That way you have a game with massive replay value, fun gameplay and something that's substantial in terms of a narrative experience.
    This sounds totally fine to me. I've never objected to this, and I'd play it. I just think Barlog's idea is more inspired, and could be something potentially less quickly disposable if done properly.



    Well then it follows that you shouldn't think in terms of conventions like gameplay loop and progression, you need to think outside the box.
    That's just the thing, I think Barlog is thinking outside the box on what one would assume possible or likely with a Superman game. Respectfully, I redirect that at you.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    No disrespect if you like the game, but I don't feel like it's such a hot take to call Uncharted a really good interactive movie at best...
    Games can be many things and if Uncharted is an interactive movie it still qualifies as a game because you can't interact with a movie. Uncharted is about having an intense story-driven experience where you get to be a character on the edge and you get the sense of being in those crazy action sequences in movies like Indiana Jones, Bond, Fast and Furious.

    Any superhero game has to be in part an interactive movie because a good part of it is you experience the character.

    This are basically single use puzzle games as action games.
    And any good Superman game will have to have a puzzle component, because Superman is about knowing how to best use his powers in any given moment and situation. Defusing a bomb...x-ray vision and use laser vision to micro-fry those wires carefully. How do you land a plane in tailspin, if you are Superman you push the plane against the velocity of its descent and carefully cushion it so that it lands? How does Superman solve an earthquake?

    The trick is to devise a level where you can solve the main puzzle in multiple ways through use of different combination of powers. That requires intricate level design.

    This sounds totally fine to me. I've never objected to this, and I'd play it. I just think Barlog's idea is more inspired, and could be something potentially less quickly disposable if done properly.
    With Superman, any hypothetical good game, is essentially going to be the first of its kind. So it needs to introduce the character and get it right. Once you do that, you can do unconventional takes. An unconventional Superman game or an artsy type isn't going to cut it.

    It took decades for Star Wars to finally make an action adventure narrative Star Wars game with Jedi Fallen Order and finally make a playable Jedi with lightsaber a thing. And they focused on getting that element right to the point of borrowing stuff from other games -- traversal from Uncharted and Sands of Time, combat from Soulsborne games.

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