Why a Superman Game is so Hard to Make

[Superlad93]

Games can be many things and if Uncharted is an interactive movie it still qualifies as a game because you can't interact with a movie.

I'm not saying that it doesn't count as a game when I call it an interactive movie. The game Detroit: Become Human was one of my favorite games of the past 5 years. What I'm saying is that going that direction for Superman, to me, doesn't crack the question of "how do you most effectively translate him to a game" the same way that the Batman and Spider-Man games do for their IPs. It feels like the answer is "you don't. You make really compelling story with linear gameplay that acts as more of a guided tour of the concept rather than a genuinely interactive experience"

Any superhero game has to be in part an interactive movie because a good part of it is you experience the character.

Not the great ones. While the story of Spider-Man PS4 is nearly excellent and very well drawn, the reason I kept playing and going back to it was the rush and feel of the finely turned gameplay, and progressing as Spider-Man. The story could honestly have just been serviceable, and that game would've still be in line for game of the year.

And any good Superman game will have to have a puzzle component, because Superman is about knowing how to best use his powers in any given moment and situation. Defusing a bomb...x-ray vision and use laser vision to micro-fry those wires carefully. How do you land a plane in tailspin, if you are Superman you push the plane against the velocity of its descent and carefully cushion it so that it lands? How does Superman solve an earthquake?

I agree. All great ideas. Doesn't mean a progression scale can't be applied.

One of the most satisfying feelings in a game is going back to an old objective that used to be beyond your character's ability for one reason or another and then reengaging it after you've upgraded both your knowledge of the game/skill and you character's ability.

The trick is to devise a level where you can solve the main puzzle in multiple ways through use of different combination of powers. That requires intricate level design.

Sure if you want to make that game, yeah. I'm not really even arguing against it.

I'm presenting an alternative that I just personally find far more compelling. I don't really see the need to go around in circles on this point when it's so simple.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I'm not saying that it doesn't count as a game when I call it an interactive movie. The game Detroit: Become Human was one of my favorite games of the past 5 years. What I'm saying is that going that direction for Superman, to me, doesn't crack the question of "how do you most effectively translate him to a game" the same way that the Batman and Spider-Man games do for their IPs. It feels like the answer is "you don't. You make really compelling story with linear gameplay that acts as more of a guided tour of the concept rather than a genuinely interactive experience"

I am just saying that we shouldn't run the risk of "perfect being the enemy of the good". If you get to experience Superman with all his powers at hand from the get-go and have a good time doing it, why not? Because with Superman you need to get the character right in a medium where everything before has been proverbially wrong. Waiting for the ultimate gameplay loop in a concept where Superman doesn't fly and you have to "progress" before you get to Superman's default setting seems wrong to me.

The thing about Spider-Man is that he's always had a consistent run of decent games. The PS4 is the first masterpiece but his games were generally of a pretty good quality. Early Spider-Man games like the 2000 Activision game were "interactive movies" and the thing is they gave you a feel of the character, and his abilities and skills. It took decades before the graphics, technology, and system was in place to deliver a complete game but well before that people got the character right in the medium. So that encouraged Insomniac to push forward and take a bigger swing.

Whereas with Superman, you really need to go from square one because it's a character that's never worked once in games.

Not the great ones. While the story of Spider-Man PS4 is nearly excellent and very well drawn, the reason I kept playing and going back to it was the rush and feel of the finely turned gameplay, and progressing as Spider-Man. The story could honestly have just been serviceable, and that game would've still be in line for game of the year.

People say that a lot, i.e. good gameplay alone matters...but in my experience it's never true. You need both ideally, but in general people do forgive crappy gameplay for a good story or concept. Take the Metal Gear Solid games, it took until Snake Eater for there to be a real video game that was fun to play and before you had to put up with crap that is practically unplayable today.

One of the most satisfying feelings in a game is going back to an old objective that used to be beyond your character's ability for one reason or another and then reengaging it after you've upgraded both your knowledge of the game/skill and you character's ability.

You can do that with Superman, going back and finding a different approach to the problem with a new use of powers and abilities.


I do agree that if you are going to do Superman in a game you need to set his abilities and powers at a certain level, and not include say, "turn back time by rotating the earth" and so on. For me the base of Superman is -- Flight, Super Strength, Super hearing, X-Ray vision, Heat Vision. Stuff like Freeze Breath or more recently Solar Flare...yeah that you can downgrade because they feel goofy. But Super-Breath like say Superman can swallow and breathe in smoke from a fire and so on, or he can create a wind tunnel by huffing and puffing is creative and within the realm of what he can do.

[Superlad93]

seems wrong to me.

I respect that. It's your opinion, and you're allowed to have it. Not much more really needs to be said.

I do agree that if you are going to do Superman in a game you need to set his abilities and powers at a certain level, and not include say, "turn back time by rotating the earth" and so on. For me the base of Superman is -- Flight, Super Strength, Super hearing, X-Ray vision, Heat Vision. Stuff like Freeze Breath or more recently Solar Flare...yeah that you can downgrade because they feel goofy. But Super-Breath like say Superman can swallow and breathe in smoke from a fire and so on, or he can create a wind tunnel by huffing and puffing is creative and within the realm of what he can do.

All fine opinions. I just disagree that this is the optimal way to go about making the first good or even great Superman game.

[marhawkman]

I like the idea of a Superman game that has gameplay mechanics more like Hitman than Injustice. IE you have a rather large game world to work with. Each mission is objective based. The objectives might be simple, such as: defeat Metallo. Or they might require finding the target first, maybe even add detective work to it. You'd have considerable leeway in how you complete objectives, but you need to take into account collateral damage. IE Superman is supposed to avoid it as much as possible. Sure, throwing an oil tanker at Metallo is cool and all, but that's a lot of collateral damage.

So it's a mix of combat and puzzle solving.

[Lightning Rider]

I like the idea of a tutorial where you can't use his powers right away, it just can't take so long that the user gets frustrated. I also would love to play as Clark trying to use his powers in secret. No reason he can't sneak around and use his x-ray vision or eavesdrop with super hearing just like the Arkham games use detective mode.

I like the idea of a Superman game that has gameplay mechanics more like Hitman than Injustice. IE you have a rather large game world to work with. Each mission is objective based. The objectives might be simple, such as: defeat Metallo. Or they might require finding the target first, maybe even add detective work to it. You'd have considerable leeway in how you complete objectives, but you need to take into account collateral damage. IE Superman is supposed to avoid it as much as possible. Sure, throwing an oil tanker at Metallo is cool and all, but that's a lot of collateral damage.

So it's a mix of combat and puzzle solving.

Yeah, Hitman is a pretty good reference for what I imagine being a good Superman game. Not necessarily sandbox (though I'd be fine with that), but broad levels where the objectives aren't just fights but very context-specific so you can get creative.

[The_Last_Czarnian]

While not overly well executed, I liked the idea of Metropolis having a life bar like in the Superman Returns tie-in. I think something in a similar vein would be the order of the day.
For really big boss fights, (the Superman killing kind) they should then introduce a health bar for Supes. Health could be regained by flying up to the edge of the atmosphere for a sun-soak, but you would then risk the boss trashing Metropolis while you heal.

Smaller bosses, no health bar needed for Supes. Just be mindful of your surroundings when you are fighting. Even launching vehicles with civilians in them around could damage the Metropolis health bar.

Something like that.

[marhawkman]

While not overly well executed, I liked the idea of Metropolis having a life bar like in the Superman Returns tie-in. I think something in a similar vein would be the order of the day.
For really big boss fights, (the Superman killing kind) they should then introduce a health bar for Supes. Health could be regained by flying up to the edge of the atmosphere for a sun-soak, but you would then risk the boss trashing Metropolis while you heal.

Smaller bosses, no health bar needed for Supes. Just be mindful of your surroundings when you are fighting. Even launching vehicles with civilians in them around could damage the Metropolis health bar.

Something like that.

ESPECIALLY the vehicles with people in them! Even in Hitman you get penalized for "non-target kills". Superman's general motivation is saving people. Of course he should get a penalty if he does the opposite.

[Vordan]

This is basically how I’d start off a Superman game:
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He’s a controversial figure with the elite hating and fearing him while the poor people kinda see him as maybe a folk hero. He’s got Golden Age power levels so he can’t fly at the start. He’s working at the Daily Star and I’d make Clark Kent interviews a gameplay feature akin to LA Noire’s interrogations. The basic plot would be Superman investigating Intergang’s control over Metropolis, while trying to stay ahead of General Sam Lane’s task force that’s trying to capture him. Lex would maybe cameo but he wouldn’t be the main antagonist, he’d simply be the guy who equips Lane’s men with weapons capable of hurting Supes, Intergang would have Apokoliptan tech capable of doing the same. The big finale would be Brainiac invading which gets Superman his super suit, Fortress of Solitude with Kandor, and his public status as an iconic hero.

I’ve seen some complaints about not starting off Superman as his “iconic self” so it bears reminding: We didn’t get the Batmobile until Arkham Knight. Hell we still haven’t gotten a Gotham City that’s actually populated with civilians instead of just thugs. I don’t think people would not play a Superman game that gets good reviews because he’s not an aw shucks flying Boy Scout.

[Restingvoice]

Yeah... but... Batmobile is field stuff. People don't complain about the Batmobile because the limited setting of the first Arkham Asylum allows Batman to not use the Batmobile. That and he's defined by his martial art and detective skills more than his Batmobile so as long as they have that people can be satisfied.

Superman though, the flying and eye rays are iconic. Something that everyone knows, but if you can find a reasonable limitation for not using it similar to confining Batman to Arkham Asylum people may accept it.

I don't know if the casual crowd will buy a Jumping Superman game of the early days, they may be curious enough. The review will be understanding enough but also will include a line like "I wish I can play a Superman that flies" as a negative point. At its best, the game will get an 8 to 9 with a point docked for not giving a full Superman experience.

However, I'm 100% sure that WB believes they won't be able to sell the Jumping Superman game. Pitching it to them will be the problem.

[Vordan]

Yeah... but... Batmobile is field stuff. People don't complain about the Batmobile because the limited setting of the first Arkham Asylum allows Batman to not use the Batmobile. That and he's defined by his martial art and detective skills more than his Batmobile so as long as they have that people can be satisfied.

Superman though, the flying and eye rays are iconic. Something that everyone knows, but if you can find a reasonable limitation for not using it similar to confining Batman to Arkham Asylum people may accept it.

I don't know if the casual crowd will buy a Jumping Superman game of the early days, they may be curious enough. The review will be understanding enough but also will include a line like "I wish I can play a Superman that flies" as a negative point. At its best, the game will get an 8 to 9 with a point docked for not giving a full Superman experience.

However, I'm 100% sure that WB believes they won't be able to sell the Jumping Superman game. Pitching it to them will be the problem.

You also gained gadgets for Batman over the course of AA and unlocked skills using XP gained beating up thugs. Batman even has a health regen in the Arkham games which is a concession to gameplay. I really don’t see it as a dealbreaker. Besides most people are convinced Supes is too OP to work as a video game anyway, so some scaling down is expected.
I promise people would be interested in checking out the game, Morrison’s Action Comics sold pretty damn well after all.

And WB won’t green light a game because they flat out don’t believe in anyone other than Batman, and Rocksteady/WBM don’t have any interest in anyone other than Batman. I’m just trying to show it can be done. I have 0 expectations of a game getting made. It’s too bad WB won’t ask outside devs to pitch games because Cory Barlog, the guy who made GoW4 loves Superman and would make a Superman game. But alas the Batman fanboys have the DC IP on lock up and just want to churn out more low effort high return Batman games.

[Frontier]

You also gained gadgets for Batman over the course of AA and unlocked skills using XP gained beating up thugs. Batman even has a health regen in the Arkham games which is a concession to gameplay. I really don’t see it as a dealbreaker. Besides most people are convinced Supes is too OP to work as a video game anyway, so some scaling down is expected.
I promise people would be interested in checking out the game, Morrison’s Action Comics sold pretty damn well after all.

Golden Age New 52 Supes would definitely be easier to adapt gameplay-wise, but like Barlog's take I just don't think that would deliver the full Superman experience people would be expecting.

I mean, yeah, with Batman you didn't start out with the Batmobile or all the gadgets but base-wise you were pretty much Prime Batman.

And WB won’t green light a game because they flat out don’t believe in anyone other than Batman, and Rocksteady/WBM don’t have any interest in anyone other than Batman. I’m just trying to show it can be done. I have 0 expectations of a game getting made. It’s too bad WB won’t ask outside devs to pitch games because Cory Barlog, the guy who made GoW4 loves Superman and would make a Superman game. But alas the Batman fanboys have the DC IP on lock up and just want to churn out more low effort high return Batman games.

Well we know they're not totally obsessed with Batman since Rocksteady is developing a DC team game that's not the Justice League or the Titans.

I get Barlog is a fan of Superman although I don't thinks his concept, interesting as it is, would be a good fit.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

With Batman, the logical expansion is
-- Arkham Asylum, hand-to-hand combat, stealth and traversal mechanics which also includes detection, puzzle solving, and combat.
-- Arkham City, city and roof-hopping, giving a sense of what a nightly patrol of a single neighborhood is like, as well as showing gliding and so on.
-- Arkham Knight, total city with Batmobile allowing Batman to single-handedly fight a mercenary army and rapidly cover a huge section of the map using vehicle, glide, foot.

You can see that Batman expanded on a curve. The first game was mostly linear without a lot of sandbox stuff. Traversal was basic, you technically had gliding in Arkham Asylum but it was more a controlled descent rather than Arkham City's more involved and detailed hang-gliding around the city. The second game expanded the gliding and grappling tools, so that it was more detailed and involved. The third game, Arkham Knight, had the Batmobile.

So with Superman, you need to expand on similar lines.
-- First game, mostly linear but focusing on getting and using all of Superman's abilities in whatever limited sandbox space you have.
-- Second game, more open world allowing freedom to cover a wider area.
-- Third game, interplanetary or inter-dimensional. i.e. Superman at the Fortress with the Phantom Zone projector, visiting the fifth dimension, bizarro-world, apokolips, brainiac and so on.

My feeling is if you want to move Superman off-world which you should, then the first game shouldn't start with him jumping across the city.

[Restingvoice]

One limitation I can think of for a Superman in full power is blocking him from punching through walls, buildings, and others by saying stuff like "I shouldn't destroy other people's property. These people work hard for it" so when indoors he's forced to hover and has controllable speed. (note that if they do use a quote like that it will get annoying and memetic really fast ^^)

But that's it. Once he's outdoor, I don't know.

Destruction wise, he can say that about the buildings, but speed-wise I don't know.

[Vordan]

One limitation I can think of for a Superman in full power is blocking him from punching through walls, buildings, and others by saying stuff like "I shouldn't destroy other people's property. These people work hard for it" so when indoors he's forced to hover and has controllable speed. (note that if they do use a quote like that it will get annoying and memetic really fast ^^)

But that's it. Once he's outdoor, I don't know.

Destruction wise, he can say that about the buildings, but speed-wise I don't know.

Dude you guys are WAAAAAAAY overthinking this stuff. All the devs have to do is not let you destroy buildings like how they didn’t let you kill thugs with the Batmobile in AK even though driving into thugs with a tank going 100 mph would absolutely kill you in real life lol. But in the game it didn’t and none of the half naked thugs Batman beat up and left exposed in subzero temps died of exposure.

Because it’s a video game. Like I’ve seen people say “how would you stop Superman from flying across the world” like other video games don’t set limits on how far you can go on the map. Spider-Man can’t swing across the bridges to mainland Manhattan in NYC in his video games but I didn’t see anyone demanding a “lore” reason for why he couldn’t.

[Restingvoice]

Dude you guys are WAAAAAAAY overthinking this stuff. All the devs have to do is not let you destroy buildings like how they didn’t let you kill thugs with the Batmobile in AK even though driving into thugs with a tank going 100 mph would absolutely kill you in real life lol. But in the game it didn’t and none of the half naked thugs Batman beat up and left exposed in subzero temps died of exposure.

Because it’s a video game. Like I’ve seen people say “how would you stop Superman from flying across the world” like other video games don’t set limits on how far you can go on the map. Spider-Man can’t swing across the bridges to mainland Manhattan in NYC in his video games but I didn’t see anyone demanding a “lore” reason for why he couldn’t.

I think that because I would ask that. I'm that guy who asks these things. ^^