Why a Superman Game is so Hard to Make

[Vordan]

I think that because I would ask that. I'm that guy who asks these things. ^^

Fair enough man. Well to keep Superman stuck in Metropolis, an easy answer is that Brainiac attempts to bottle the city at the start of the game, but Superman/Lex interrupts the process which leaves the process half finished. Metropolis is enveloped by a force field that surrounds the city which Superman can’t punch through. There that keeps him contained inside Metropolis.

Personally I’m pretty fine with “it’s a video game so they have to set the map limits somewhere”, but that’s an “in-lore reason” for you. Future games could also simply use the reason of the villains threatening to go on rampages and kill civilians if Supes tries to leave so he refuses to leave until everyone is locked up.

[Vordan]

I think it's just hard to get flying to feel as exhilarating as web-swinging and gliding/grappling, because those are firstly affected by gravity where Superman isn't, and secondly they're easier to design than the complete freedom of flight. Most fun I've ever had flying in a game is the "NiGHTS into Dreams" series, and that flight isn't even in 3-D space!

I think they should make a Superman Telltale game. I think that alone would scratch my Superman game itch. Less about playing as Superman, more about making the kinds of choices Clark/Superman has to make.

Anthem was a really boring game story and loot wise but the flying and the combat was actually pretty solid.
https://youtu.be/nXi73nhIvZI
I think you can totally have fun flying mechanics, but I do prefer having the player work towards them a bit by starting out at Golden Age power levels.

[Mr.B]

Have Superman in a self repairing city.

Or Superboy Prime game.

Or Early Golden age powers.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think if you do a Metropolis open world game you need a story that justifies it. Like in Arkham City and Arkham Knight, there are solid narrative reasons why you have an entire city populated with thugs you can beat up and no civilians and why it's set in perpetual night.

Like if Brainiac decides to capture Metropolis, dome it, and plans to shrink it and add it in his collection. That will justify making the entire city a character, give you hard reasons why Superman can't leave the city, and raise the stakes. Heck you can do Metropolis and Kandor as sister-city maps, as Superman has to hold fort and defend two cities. A Metropolis under dome can have plots like Intergang, Toyman and others decide to back Brainiac. You can have subplots with Dan Turpin, Maggie Sawyer, Lois, Jimmy, Perry, Bibbo and others holding fort against the criminals.

So here's the curve for Superman games.

-- Superman PS5 : Linear, level-based narrative that captures all of Superman's powers in themed levels and select settings that serves as a showcase and display. It has a similar modest scope as Batman Arkham Asylum.
-- Superman 2 - PS5 (or PS6): Open World set in Metropolis as Brainiac decides to conquer and shrink it. Includes Kandor. Two cities offer a theme about Superman in his present versus Superman's heritage. It has an expanded scope as Batman Arkham City.
-- Superman 3 - Superman versus Apokolips. So you have Superman in an intergalactic conflict. So you have Superman in New Genesis, Apokolips and Earth. You have Superman flying in open space and fighting space battles like himself (imagine a Death Star run where you pilot Superman himself against Apokoliptan ships and parademons). This is the Arkham Knight.

[phantom1592]

I was just thinking about this and I have a pitch. The Superman video game should be his origin, a Coming Of Age story.

Two big reasons why.

1) It's new territory in video games. Spider-Man told the best superhero story in a game, and the Arkham games were very good stories too. But they were both mid-career peak status. That's tough to do with Superman who has so many abilities that you want to introduce each new power in the way that you gain abilities in a Zelda game.

And more importantly:

2) You will gain your powers over the course of the adventure, building up to the full-powered demi-god Superman by the midpoint of the campaign. By that time, the game would be supported by DLC and an "open world city" MMO of the Bottled City of Kandor where everyone is a custom-outfit version of Superman (race/gender also adjustable). It's like Fortnite except not a battle to the death.

Honestly, I hate Everything about this idea. In my opinion, the absolute BEST thing about Arkham and Spider-man games is that you get to play AS Batman and Spider-man… not weak boring rookie versions. Full fledged Superheroes at the peak of their abilities... Biggest issue I had with a lot of earlier games was the 'tutorial' in spidey's wrestling costume and crap like that. I want to jump right into the middle and BE the superhero.

There have been earlier Superman and X-Men games where you had to 'earn' the ability to use your powers... and that just wasn't good.

SR is probably the best representation so far, but I think there could be two bars: one for the city and one for Superman. Superman's bar doesn't often move. But when it comes to huge boss fights, it does (since they're on his power level). Maybe even have the first boss fights not be threats to Superman himself, so even then, the bar doesn't move.

It's harder than the average game, yeah.

A Superman game isn't going to be like Arkham Asylum, and it really shouldn't be. The character isn't the same. There should be enemies that are just fun to mess with (and they should find a way to keep it fun rofl-stomping them), some that are a threat to the city, and some that are a threat to both Superman *and* the city.

The trick is to how to change things up over time so it doesn't get tedious.

I'm trying to remember how/what SR did in that first Warworld fight with Mongul…. I'm 90% sure they gave us a health bar because I remember losing that fight a Lot. So yeah, switching from city bar to personal bar could definitely be a thing.

I've always thought the main problem with Superman in a game is that his arsenal is so large. You need to be able to control flight, heat vision, superbreath, super-speed, as well as combat moves. Trying to create an intuitive way to do all of this in one game is more complex that most characters in video games who are reasonably simple concepts that vary more in levels and a single unique attack type. Unless you reduce Superman to a flying brick there are just too many aspects to come up with quick control combinations for. And too many different types of opposition (Luthor, Zod, Kryptonite, …) that would need to also be factored in.

Superman Returns did a fantastic job with that. There are enough buttons now that it isn't too hard to give you all the powers. You had the heat vision, freeze breath, speed, x-ray (when needed), flight, along with a bunch of combos that combined them... It really was the first Superman game I ever played where I FELT like Superman. The city was the 'health' bar.. but you also had a power bar that would make you 'tired' if you burned thorugh too much power at once, but filled up right away.... but also depleted fast if hit with Kryptonite. They really put a lot of thought into it.

But really, Superman doesn't have as many powers as Batman has gadgets, and the Arkham game juggles though just fine in combo fights.

Dude you guys are WAAAAAAAY overthinking this stuff. All the devs have to do is not let you destroy buildings like how they didn’t let you kill thugs with the Batmobile in AK even though driving into thugs with a tank going 100 mph would absolutely kill you in real life lol. But in the game it didn’t and none of the half naked thugs Batman beat up and left exposed in subzero temps died of exposure.

Because it’s a video game. Like I’ve seen people say “how would you stop Superman from flying across the world” like other video games don’t set limits on how far you can go on the map. Spider-Man can’t swing across the bridges to mainland Manhattan in NYC in his video games but I didn’t see anyone demanding a “lore” reason for why he couldn’t.

LOL!!! yeah... I love how they actually made 'Batman doesn't kill... he doesn't cross THAT line' as a main plot point in the first game they gave me giant tank with machine guns... ummm… I gotta be honest.... PEOPLE DIED!!! A LOT of people. The same guns that are BLOWING UP other cars are taking out wandering thugs... Say all you want about 'nonlethal ordinance' but that's crap... Not to mention how bad the handling was on it... I absolutely ran over a LOT of people...

Every other Arkham game could have gotten away with that without looking like a hypocrite... but 'no killing + New Bat-tank' is NOT that game....



I also remember an early Spider-man game my friends and I were playing and Spidey grabs a guy with a web and swings him in a big circle and throws him.... Which I somehow did on top of a skyscraper... That, wasn't good... But it was FUNNY :P

so yeah, sometimes you just have to shrug and accept that its' game mechanics don't line up quite right.

[Frontier]

I’ve seen some complaints about not starting off Superman as his “iconic self” so it bears reminding: We didn’t get the Batmobile until Arkham Knight. Hell we still haven’t gotten a Gotham City that’s actually populated with civilians instead of just thugs. I don’t think people would not play a Superman game that gets good reviews because he’s not an aw shucks flying Boy Scout.

I've never understood all this focus on the lack of civilians in Arkham games. I mean, realism, yeah, but it's not like Batman is known for his interactions with civilians beyond saving them from thugs (which we got some of in Arkham Origins and maybe City?) and Batman usually works at a time when there are as few people out as possible.

[phantom1592]

I've never understood all this focus on the lack of civilians in Arkham games. I mean, realism, yeah, but it's not like Batman is known for his interactions with civilians beyond saving them from thugs (which we got some of in Arkham Origins and maybe City?) and Batman usually works at a time when there are as few people out as possible.

Agreed. When I think of all the civilians running around in Spider-man and Superman Returns... I NEVER think of that many running around Gotham. I don't remember Batman running down the street trying to push his way through crowds of innocents since the the 1966 series. It's Gotham... at night... most people are inside praying for Dawn :P

But really... I maybe can see Batman rescuing someone getting mugged... but I just don't see rescuing kids balloons or rushing people to the nearest hospital or having people shout out your name as being part of a Batman game. I give Arkham games some serious credit for at least calling it out and giving a reason (however convoluted) to get thee civilians out fo the way.

[Restingvoice]

Fair enough man. Well to keep Superman stuck in Metropolis, an easy answer is that Brainiac attempts to bottle the city at the start of the game, but Superman/Lex interrupts the process which leaves the process half finished. Metropolis is enveloped by a force field that surrounds the city which Superman can’t punch through. There that keeps him contained inside Metropolis.

Personally I’m pretty fine with “it’s a video game so they have to set the map limits somewhere”, but that’s an “in-lore reason” for you. Future games could also simply use the reason of the villains threatening to go on rampages and kill civilians if Supes tries to leave so he refuses to leave until everyone is locked up.

I'm also thinking about the Kryptonite vest that Talia place on him in Leviathan as a starting point. He's been kidnapped and placed indoors. Then after that first chapter, we can start jumping or flying.

The way Spider-Man and Batman do their chain combo can also be used to represent his Super Speed, or use Bullet Time if you wanna go faster.

The Batplane in Arkham Origin is a fast travel method so if there's a need to travel between different parts of the city they can do that

Superman doesn't fly as fast as a bullet all the time, he can relax, so they just need a fun flying control while in the city.

The blockade I mentioned is only for instances like, for example, where a criminal is taking a hostage, or this villain is on top of this lair. I have to ask, why do I have to get through this obstacle course just to get to them? ...Though in that case, he usually breaks through walls anyway.

So I think the approach shouldn't be a dungeon crawl like Batman or even Spider-Man but simply finding the most efficient way to get to the enemy and save the people. The danger then wouldn't be on Superman unless Kryptonite and Magic are involved but on the people.

[Ascended]

Because it’s a video game. Like I’ve seen people say “how would you stop Superman from flying across the world” like other video games don’t set limits on how far you can go on the map. Spider-Man can’t swing across the bridges to mainland Manhattan in NYC in his video games but I didn’t see anyone demanding a “lore” reason for why he couldn’t.

I don't even think that has to be a limitation anymore.

Sure, conventional wisdom tells us that a video game has to have set map limits. But does it? In Megaton Rainfall you can fly to other galaxies, and explore all the planets and stars along the way. You can actually walk on those planets and stars, get right down on the ground, in detail. You can fly all over the earth and visit actual cities, with people walking around and cars and whatever else. Now, I'm not saying that game is a model for Superman to follow; from what I've seen the combat is one-note and the graphics are very much lacking compared to what we're used to. And those other planets don't have much going on.

But the point is, a borderless world can be done. And if programming the whole universe is too much, then limit it to earth. Just say that Superman can't breath in space and can't stray too far from earth orbit, like back in post-Crisis.

You want the Superman experience? Then let him travel the whole world. Let him visit Gotham and New York and Shanghai and whatever. Players will return to Metropolis because that's where the story, enemies, and loot are.

But if you need to limit your map to just one city, you can either bottle it like Kandor or just have Clark reach the city limits and say "I can't leave Metropolis when it needs me!"

We're about to hit a new generation of gaming consoles and my phone has more processing power than the first rockets that reached the moon. What used to be a limitation ten years ago is only a suggestion today, and often one we can easily ignore.

[marhawkman]

I don't even think that has to be a limitation anymore.

Sure, conventional wisdom tells us that a video game has to have set map limits. But does it? In Megaton Rainfall you can fly to other galaxies, and explore all the planets and stars along the way. You can actually walk on those planets and stars, get right down on the ground, in detail. You can fly all over the earth and visit actual cities, with people walking around and cars and whatever else. Now, I'm not saying that game is a model for Superman to follow; from what I've seen the combat is one-note and the graphics are very much lacking compared to what we're used to. And those other planets don't have much going on.

But the point is, a borderless world can be done. And if programming the whole universe is too much, then limit it to earth. Just say that Superman can't breath in space and can't stray too far from earth orbit, like back in post-Crisis.

You want the Superman experience? Then let him travel the whole world. Let him visit Gotham and New York and Shanghai and whatever. Players will return to Metropolis because that's where the story, enemies, and loot are.

But if you need to limit your map to just one city, you can either bottle it like Kandor or just have Clark reach the city limits and say "I can't leave Metropolis when it needs me!"

We're about to hit a new generation of gaming consoles and my phone has more processing power than the first rockets that reached the moon. What used to be a limitation ten years ago is only a suggestion today, and often one we can easily ignore.

Well, look at No Man's Sky.... it's a giant empty sand box. Sure, you CAN make an entire explorable galaxy, but do you want to? A Superman game that was an empty sandbox would make people wonder why it's a Superman game since that's not what Superman comics are.

One limitation I can think of for a Superman in full power is blocking him from punching through walls, buildings, and others by saying stuff like "I shouldn't destroy other people's property. These people work hard for it" so when indoors he's forced to hover and has controllable speed. (note that if they do use a quote like that it will get annoying and memetic really fast ^^)

But that's it. Once he's outdoor, I don't know.

Destruction wise, he can say that about the buildings, but speed-wise I don't know.

I'd just make it so breaking environments is only a thing you as the player do if it's a mission objective. You don't NEED to explain why Superman avoids demolishing the city. It's just what he does.

As for powers, you can do like the most recent Spider-man game did and start with a basic set of powers and get not necessarily better powers, but new skills that use the powers.

Example: Flying
Basic flight lets you fly indefinitely, but not that fast.
Upgrades might increase the movement speed.
Super speed would be more of an ability than a constantly always on thing(since players DON'T have Kryptonian reflexes)
But for flying you could have a speed burst that draws from a stamina meter. Thus you can fly at super speed for short periods that get longer as you upgrade your skills.
For speed based combat you can have things like s superfast lunge punch or rapid fire punches that run off the stamina meter.