Hollywood Directors distate for the MCU...

[Kirby101]

What percent of movies are "cinema"? Are there less films that are "cinema" today than 10 or 20 years ago?

[lowfyr]

It might help is someone who says that Marvel/Disney/Superhero/Blockbuster movies aren't cinema, actually defined what cinema is.

Instead, all I've heard is some vague mutterings about art and passion and vision. I keep getting the feeling that the argument boils down to "I don't like it, so it's not art/cinema/worthy of praise/etc."

That would be more honest, yes. Prime example for that is the "x-men movies are higher art than the MCU movies" stuff that gets repeated over and over again. Just saying that they like the X-men movies more would be all Right. But trying to make them higher art movies is more than a Little over the top.

[Farealmer]

It might help is someone who says that Marvel/Disney/Superhero/Blockbuster movies aren't cinema, actually defined what cinema is.

Instead, all I've heard is some vague mutterings about art and passion and vision. I keep getting the feeling that the argument boils down to "I don't like it, so it's not art/cinema/worthy of praise/etc."

It's the classic "it has no soul" argument. Never mind those making the argument have no ability to detect "soul". They just "know" and that makes looking down on the object of their ire ok. And since the other side of the debate can't prove something so ephemeral exists or doesn't it's an easy way to criticize.

[Starter Set]

Scorsese has said that the MCU is nothing more than a theme park

That's actually a pretty accurate depiction. You go watch those movies like you would go to a park, to look at pretty shiny things and have a decent amount of fun.

And that's not being insulting, those movies don't even try to say something or to be about something. Just plain good ol' entertainment.

Well made entertainment though and that's the important part. Cause let's not forget something, it may seem easy to make movies like that but it sure as hell is not. Look at how much Warner has struggled over the years with their movies.

It's a very delicate balance, too much comedy and you end up like those Thor movies, too much grim and somehow you turn the most optimistic character ever, Superman, into something depressing to watch. It's easy to fail.

[Rincewind]

I wonder if we'll ever see a thread called "Hollywood Directors Enjoyment for the MCU"

1. Steven Speilberg on Guardians of the Galaxy: “I love the Superman of Richard Donne, The Dark Knight, Christopher Nolan, and the first Iron Man, but [the] superhero film that impressed me most is one that does not take itself too seriously: Guardians of the Galaxy. When his projection was over, I left with the feeling of having seen something new in movies, without any cynicism or fear of being dark when needed." https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/10...ake-criticism/

2. Quentin Tarantino on the MCU: “I think the only comic-book movies I saw last year at theaters were Wonder Woman and Black Panther. But about a couple of weeks ago I started catching up with some of the Marvel movies so I could go see Endgame. I just finished Captain America: Civil War, so next up is Doctor Strange.” https://www.empire***********/movies...thor-ragnarok/

3. Spike Lee on Black Panther: "I've seen it four times. And I will say, I look at the world now differently — before Black Panther and after Black Panther. That changed everything, especially for people of color." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...aldwin-1105698

4. George Miller on whether superhero movies are cinema: “I watch all of them,” Miller said. “To be honest, in terms of this debate, cinema is cinema and it’s a very broad church. The test, ultimately, is what it means to the audience. There’s a great quote I saw that applies to all we do. It was from the Swahili storytellers. Each time they finished a story they would say, ‘The story has been told. If it was bad, it was my fault because I am the storyteller. And if it was good, it belongs to everybody.’

“It’s a mistake and a kind of hubris if a film does well at the box office to dismiss it as clever marketing or something else,” Miller said. “There’s more happening there, and it’s our obligation as storytellers to really try and understand it. To me, it’s all cinema. I don’t think you can ghettoize it and say, oh this is cinema or that is cinema. It applies to all the arts, to literature, the performing arts, painting and music, in all its form. It’s such a broad spectrum, a wide range and to say that anyone is more significant or more important than the other, is missing the point. It’s one big mosaic and each bit of work fits into it.” https://deadline.com/2019/12/george-...ew-1202802441/

[Theleviathan]

I wonder if we'll ever see a thread called "Hollywood Directors Enjoyment for the MCU"

1. Steven Speilberg on Guardians of the Galaxy: “I love the Superman of Richard Donne, The Dark Knight, Christopher Nolan, and the first Iron Man, but [the] superhero film that impressed me most is one that does not take itself too seriously: Guardians of the Galaxy. When his projection was over, I left with the feeling of having seen something new in movies, without any cynicism or fear of being dark when needed." https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/10...ake-criticism/

2. Quentin Tarantino on the MCU: “I think the only comic-book movies I saw last year at theaters were Wonder Woman and Black Panther. But about a couple of weeks ago I started catching up with some of the Marvel movies so I could go see Endgame. I just finished Captain America: Civil War, so next up is Doctor Strange.” https://www.empire***********/movies...thor-ragnarok/

3. Spike Lee on Black Panther: "I've seen it four times. And I will say, I look at the world now differently — before Black Panther and after Black Panther. That changed everything, especially for people of color." https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...aldwin-1105698

4. George Miller on whether superhero movies are cinema: “I watch all of them,” Miller said. “To be honest, in terms of this debate, cinema is cinema and it’s a very broad church. The test, ultimately, is what it means to the audience. There’s a great quote I saw that applies to all we do. It was from the Swahili storytellers. Each time they finished a story they would say, ‘The story has been told. If it was bad, it was my fault because I am the storyteller. And if it was good, it belongs to everybody.’

“It’s a mistake and a kind of hubris if a film does well at the box office to dismiss it as clever marketing or something else,” Miller said. “There’s more happening there, and it’s our obligation as storytellers to really try and understand it. To me, it’s all cinema. I don’t think you can ghettoize it and say, oh this is cinema or that is cinema. It applies to all the arts, to literature, the performing arts, painting and music, in all its form. It’s such a broad spectrum, a wide range and to say that anyone is more significant or more important than the other, is missing the point. It’s one big mosaic and each bit of work fits into it.” https://deadline.com/2019/12/george-...ew-1202802441/

Hell yeah George Miller.

Arguing MCU is not "cinema" is ridiculous. That's just a fact by any broadly used definition of "cinema". Whether you like those or not is your opinion.

[Powerboy]

Scorsese got triggered for right reasons. MCU movies have embarrassed cinema long enough. They are fast foods for an audience who don't want to think. MCU has bragged about their dumb spoofy films countless times. Hollywood directors are right to show distaste for that type of cinema. Scorsese should not worry much, MCU films will phase out soon. Does any one of you remember Endgame came out last year by the time 2020 was coming to an end?

I think the MCU is getting to be the new Jehovah's Witnesses.

Reasons to not start getting into the MCU: Because it's going to end anytime now. You just wait and see. The year 2020 is the end.

Reasons to start getting into watching the MCU: Because it was going to end in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 but it didn't.

But the "You just wait and see" crowd will win eventually since the MCU has to end eventually because, well, everything ends eventually.

[Pinsir]

Can you show me this majority of Journalist who like the MCU but think it's not Cinema?

The Golden Globes is an award given out by journalists and I believe the only MCU to be nominated for best picture is Black Panther.

I don't get inclination on behalf of MCU fans to pretend most MCU films don't exist. If all MCU consisted of was Iron Man 1, GotG, Black Panther and a few others then yeah, the MCU would be pretty good, but its not. Its like 25 films or something and most of them are clearly forgettable.

[Rincewind]

The Golden Globes is an award given out by journalists and I believe the only MCU to be nominated for best picture is Black Panther.

I don't get inclination on behalf of MCU fans to pretend most MCU films don't exist. If all MCU consisted of was Iron Man 1, GotG, Black Panther and a few others then yeah, the MCU would be pretty good, but its not. Its like 25 films or something and most of them are clearly forgettable.

That's not an example of journalists who like the MCU but think it's not cinema.

[80sbaby]

The Golden Globes is an award given out by journalists and I believe the only MCU to be nominated for best picture is Black Panther.

So you think journalists believe the only films that count as "cinema" are the 10 nominees at the Golden Globes? None of the other 100+ films that aren't nominated don't count as "cinema" to them?

[XPac]

It really isn't a controversial statement though. Most of the journalists that give favourable views too MCU fans will not classify a single MCU film as cinema. The only reason why MCU fans got upset is because they think being 'not cinema' means its bad, which it isn't. A movie can be good without it being cinema.

Except it is cinema. It's just cinema that some people don't happen to like.

[Pinsir]

It might help is someone who says that Marvel/Disney/Superhero/Blockbuster movies aren't cinema, actually defined what cinema is.

Instead, all I've heard is some vague mutterings about art and passion and vision. I keep getting the feeling that the argument boils down to "I don't like it, so it's not art/cinema/worthy of praise/etc."

Martin Scorsese did put forward a definition of what constitutes part of cinema;

It [the MCU] isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.

Now I know what the response to this is going to be; that there are tons of moments where characters convey emotions! Well let's take a look how a fairly defining feature of the human experience and is absent in the MCU, sexual and romantic relationships. I'll preface this by saying I stopped watching these films around GotG 2, but that's like 15 films so its more than enough to draw a consensus.

There is pretty much a total absence of sex in the MCU, other than the implied situations where a couple have kids. This appears a conscious effort on the part of the MCU planners and more or less handicaps every character. Human beings are sexual beings, and lack of sexual appetite on behalf of nearly every character in the franchise is anathema to the lived experience of about 99% of human beings. People use to joke about Captain America being a virgin and yeah its funny, but it makes Captain America's character far less human when you actually consider that he likely is and seems unphased by it.

You also can't have genuine romance without sex, which is why pretty much every MCU romance falls flat. One of the reasons why Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor's relationship feels so fresh is because they actually have intercourse. Its also the reason why MJ and Peter Parker's relationship feels authentic in the Raimi films. Sure I don't think there is a scene in any film that implies they've fornicated with one another, but the scene of MJ snogging on Spidey is iconic for a reason. So many of these MCU relationships feel like how children must imagine adult romance, where you simply hold hands and tepidly peck one another.

[Farealmer]

You also can't have genuine romance without sex

Two questions
1. Are you saying asexuals can't ever be in "genuine" romantic relationships?
2. Are you saying a film cannot "convey emotional, psychological experiences" without sex being either shown or implied?

[Powerboy]

Martin Scorsese did put forward a definition of what constitutes part of cinema;



Now I know what the response to this is going to be; that there are tons of moments where characters convey emotions! Well let's take a look a fairly defining feature of the human experience and used in the MCU, sexual and romantic relationships. I'll preface this by saying I stopped watching these films around GotG 2, but that's like 15 films so its more than enough to draw a consensus.

There is pretty much a total absence of sex in the MCU, other than the implied situations where a couple have kids. This appears a conscious effort on the part of the MCU planners and more or less handicaps every character. Human beings are sexual beings, and lack of sexual appetite on behalf of nearly every character in the franchise is anathema to the lived experience of about 99% of human beings. People use to joke about Captain America being a virgin and yeah its funny, but it makes Captain America's character far less human when you actually consider that he likely is and seems unphased by it.

You also can't have genuine romance without sex, which is why pretty much every MCU romance falls flat. One of the reasons why Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor's relationship feels so fresh is because they actually have intercourse. Its also the reason why MJ and Peter Parker's relationship feels authentic in the Raimi films. Sure I don't think there is a scene in any film that implies they've fornicated with one another, but the seen of MJ snogging on Spidey is iconic for a reason. So many of these MCU relationships feel like how children must imagine adult romance, where you simply hold hands and tepidly peck one another.

"Hey, Mommy and Daddy, you bought me the Dark Knight Batman action figure and the Dark Knight Batmobile. So, why won't you let me see any of the Dark Knight movies? I mean, the marketing is clearly designed towards me. Yet I can't actually see the movies? What's up with that?"

I think that's what the MCU has somewhat tried to avoid. Oh, not with Iron-Man. The sexual innuendos abound although it's like a juvenile's concept of romance and sex. But they have generally tried to keep it on a level where it isn't blatant.

Does anybody really believe they are meaning to say that the Falcon has never had sex? Or the Black Widow? Or Thor? Or even Captain America?

This sort of reminds me of a story one of my college profs once told. There was a movie with Charlie Chaplain where they needed to imply that he and a woman were living together so there's a scene where he is at her house, goes upstairs and into her bedroom, opens her dresser, takes out a pair of his socks and puts them on. Subtle but implying everything you need to know without ever showing it. As the prof said, nowadays, which was the 1970s at the time, you'd have to have them gratuitously rolling around in bed because, of course, that scene would really be necessary to get the point and not at all to sell more tickets.

At the same time, I also get your point. Spidey and MJ with the kiss when he's hanging upsidedown is extremely memorable and conveys a lot without showing it. The MCU, once it got going for a while, became extremely child friendly to the point of not at all getting into any relationships.

Not that something has to dwell on the romance to be meaningful. I remember all those explicit sex scenes in the Lord of the Rings, books and movies.

[Rincewind]

Martin Scorsese did put forward a definition of what constitutes part of cinema.

That’s not the definition of cinema. That’s the definition of what Martin Scorsese likes in movies dressed up in some gatekeeping BS.

You say the MCU doesn’t meet the criteria? There are posters who say they do. It comes down to personal tastes. You are using a subjective standard to state your personal taste as objective fact.