Hollywood Directors distate for the MCU...

[kingaliencracker]

It's not that difficult to figure out.

The MCU are studio-driven films. Marvel sets the story and tone, and the director simply follows the script.

For directors like Scorsese, Cameron, Spielberg, etc., I can imagine that's absolutely counter to what they believe in in terms of creating a movie.

[Theleviathan]

I am curious to see if people think that the MCU films did more harm to the genre than good and if their will be any future implications on expectations for CBM moving forward. I think CBM were seen as a challenge for past directors because in all reality CBM are story adaptations nothing more nothing less. Imo no different than adapting a book like LOTR or Harry Potter. I would even compare Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman to broadway as part of the intrigue of their future films are how well or different they will be from past iterations. May create a thread about it.

They made them a mainstream cornerstone of our cultural experience of film. Which is no small feat.

The MCU has no lack of quality writers, directors, and actors lining up to have a chance to appear or be a part of it. They have catapulted the genre and the characters to the center of our entertainment universe. I don't know what that means long-term, but I know getting from where we were 10-15 years ago to now is nothing but impressive as an accomplishment.

[Powerboy]

I am curious to see if people think that the MCU films did more harm to the genre than good and if their will be any future implications on expectations for CBM moving forward. I think CBM were seen as a challenge for past directors because in all reality CBM are story adaptations nothing more nothing less. Imo no different than adapting a book like LOTR or Harry Potter. I would even compare Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman to broadway as part of the intrigue of their future films are how well or different they will be from past iterations. May create a thread about it.

DC movies tried to have some depth and explore the human condition with "Man of Steel", B vs S and Wonder Woman. I don't know if the first two would have been more accepted without the MCU. There might never have been a DC movie shared universe without the MCU. But the DCEU clearly threw in the towel as far as their shared universe with Aquaman and made it more MCU-like as they tried to do with Justice League. Then again, they forged ahead with "Joker". So they gave in to the desire for more lighthearted stuff and fluff in some movies but not others.

I suspect the MCU has made CBM an acceptable genre and even a major one. Oh, it already was but not on a regular basis as it is now.

[ComicJunkie21]

DC movies tried to have some depth and explore the human condition with "Man of Steel", B vs S and Wonder Woman. I don't know if the first two would have been more accepted without the MCU. There might never have been a DC movie shared universe without the MCU. But the DCEU clearly threw in the towel as far as their shared universe with Aquaman and made it more MCU-like as they tried to do with Justice League. Then again, they forged ahead with "Joker". So they gave in to the desire for more lighthearted stuff and fluff in some movies but not others.

I suspect the MCU has made CBM an acceptable genre and even a major one. Oh, it already was but not on a regular basis as it is now.

Interesting because I think it can be argued that without the MCU, BvS could have been more successful because people may not have had expectations for the film to have the same elements that make up MCU films. Not saying I believe this but it's an interesting topic with many sides to look at. I don't want to derail this thread's topic so I'll create a separate thread about the impact of the MCU success on past and future films in the genre.

[lowfyr]

If Joker had come out 12-17 years ago. he would have directed it. The reputation of CBMs was at it most healthy in the 2000s. Look at some of the good CBM that came out then to what we have now. we just can compare. Scorsese would hardly feel ashamed, he is directing a CBM like he sees it now.

I think most directors who were involved in comic movies James McTeigue, Frank Miller, Robert Rodriguez, Bryan Singer, Christopher Nolan, Sam Raimi would not want to make a CBM today post MCU era.

In the 2000 we got movies like Elektra,Catwoman or the third X-men movie. So trying to sell the Reputation of CBMs from the time as most healthy is as usual with your "Arguments" a stretch to stay nice. I would say we are better now than we were ever before. At least we no longer get directors not even bothering with the source, because it is "just" a Comic book.

And could you please stop calling your Arguments against the MCU Facts. It is still not true and makes taking you seriously impossible.

[Pinsir]

https://www.nme.com/news/film/martin...-films-2564495

This may be old news but, apparently, Scorsese has qualified and explained his remarks. Interestingly enough, he acknowledges that there are elements of art and cinema to the MCU but doesn't think there is enough of either. He also makes it clear that a lot of what he is saying is a criticism of modern movies in general.

“That’s the nature of modern film franchises: market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until they’re ready for consumption.”

He's basically saying that they aren't auteur projects, which I think isn't that controversial. That is he is speaking broadly. GotG is probably an auteur film.

[Pinsir]

I'm not saying this with any hint of cynicism, i genuinely don't understand this. Like, at all.

Different characters have different framing so to speak. Captain America's story was that he never lived the life and got the girl he wanted.

Thor and Iron Man on the other hand have been in relationships. Pepper and Tony got married and had a daughter. Banner in the Incredible Hulk was explicitly shown as not being able to get intimate with anyone. Starlord has been shown to be quite "sexual" and Ant-Man is a divorced father.

What I can see is that different characters have different framing but the overarching criticism about the lack of depiction of intimacy is a bit difficult to understand. Like beyond light kissing, what more do you want in the movies??

The issue with MCU's relationships is that few, if any, feel authentic. This is actually a flaw with the comic book medium as a whole, in so many of the early comic books the primary love interest is introduced at the same time hero because these stories were power fantasies. Simply being a hero means you would be rewarded with a gf (In Captain America 1, it does feel like Peggy only gives Steve any attention because he becomes a 'chad').

Relationships are treated as an award for being heroic and are never really explored beyond that. This is something you see in a lot of children's media (i.e. Disney flicks), the happily ever after routine, but if you at Martin Scorsese' s films, like, say, Goodfellas, a major focus of that movie is seeing how the mob life affects your family. A lot of what constitutes 'cinema' actually depicts dysfunctional relationships, I mean, one of the best films of the year is Marriage Story, a movie about divorce.

The thing with the MCU though is that every movie is intended to be a trilogy (or more), so there was tons of time to explore these relationships and give them greater depth and that really never happens. Two major developments in Tony Stark's relationship with Pepper; them breaking up (before the events in Civil War) and Tony Stark proposing (Homecoming) aren't actually shown on screen. Wouldn't these have been interesting to see as a plot line in an Iron Man film? Portman x Thor was so boring Taika Waititi cut that crap out and made for a much better film. Betty x Hulk was cut because Wheadon saw a gif of Widow x Hulk (Question; Did this actually go anywhere?).

Not every piece of 'cinema' has to be about relationships, but here is the thing, when they are displayed prominently they should feel authentic.

[Pinsir]

Wait, do you actually view all stories through an incel/MRA lens like this? "Betas" and "Chads" are not how normal actual humans behave. Just because you don't believe in chaste, or unrequited love doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't mean that hte Steve storyline is implausible or inhuman. It means you have trouble accepting anything that falls outside your own strict definitions.

Nah, the incel/MRA lens is just funny and is useful in displaying the strangeness of MCU Captain America. I'm fine with chaste love I guess, but it really isn't believable to a point. We know a lack of intimacy causes serious psychological problems, which Cap never really displays.

I do like the idea of Captain America being discontent, that he failed to find peace living in modern times, but is this really shown in the movies? If we had seen Captain America going on dates and trying to move on after Peggy passes then this arc would be far more believable. Another idea I had is, how about we actually see Steve try to adapt to modern life and fail? See him try to do some of the items on that list he makes in Winter Soldier and at first is super enthusiastic about it, but eventually we start seeing him drift away from trying new things and he surrounds himself with the comforts he's familiar with.

[Midvillian1322]

The issue with MCU's relationships is that few, if any, feel authentic. This is actually a flaw with the comic book medium as a whole, in so many of the early comic books the primary love interest is introduced at the same time hero because these stories were power fantasies. Simply being a hero means you would be rewarded with a gf (In Captain America 1, it does feel like Peggy only gives Steve any attention because he becomes a 'chad').

Relationships are treated as an award for being heroic and are never really explored beyond that. This is something you see in a lot of children's media (i.e. Disney flicks), the happily ever after routine, but if you at Martin Scorsese' s films, like, say, Goodfellas, a major focus of that movie is seeing how the mob life affects your family. A lot of what constitutes 'cinema' actually depicts dysfunctional relationships, I mean, one of the best films of the year is Marriage Story, a movie about divorce.

The thing with the MCU though is that every movie is intended to be a trilogy (or more), so there was tons of time to explore these relationships and give them greater depth and that really never happens. Two major developments in Tony Stark's relationship with Pepper; them breaking up (before the events in Civil War) and Tony Stark proposing (Homecoming) aren't actually shown on screen. Wouldn't these have been interesting to see as a plot line in an Iron Man film? Portman x Thor was so boring Taika Waititi cut that crap out and made for a much better film. Betty x Hulk was cut because Wheadon saw a gif of Widow x Hulk (Question; Did this actually go anywhere?).

Not every piece of 'cinema' has to be about relationships, but here is the thing, when they are displayed prominently they should feel authentic.

I agree that the MCU hasnt done romantic relationships very well. Thor Ragnarok gave up and shifted to Loki and Thors relationship and I feel it did that well. Now Portmans excited to come back with Waititi at the helm but I think they are gonna fake everyone out and Jane and Thor wont get back together or even try to. Caps relationship with Sam and Bucky worked better then his with Peggy imo. I do like Pepper and Tony but they get stuck in the will they wont they and then everything big happens off screen. And then Quill and Gamora I like but they never got past the will they wont they before she died. Scott and Hope is fine but those movies are just fun they dont try too hard with anything

[WebLurker]

Scott and Hope is fine but those movies are just fun they dont try too hard with anything

That's also one of the few where the couple is shown having important conversations outside of their relationship.

[Midvillian1322]

That's also one of the few where the couple is shown having important conversations outside of their relationship.

Yea it works and feels organic but they dont really try for any of the drama other relationships have.

[Username taken]

The issue with MCU's relationships is that few, if any, feel authentic. This is actually a flaw with the comic book medium as a whole, in so many of the early comic books the primary love interest is introduced at the same time hero because these stories were power fantasies. Simply being a hero means you would be rewarded with a gf (In Captain America 1, it does feel like Peggy only gives Steve any attention because he becomes a 'chad').

Fair enough.

Relationships are treated as an award for being heroic and are never really explored beyond that. This is something you see in a lot of children's media (i.e. Disney flicks), the happily ever after routine, but if you at Martin Scorsese' s films, like, say, Goodfellas, a major focus of that movie is seeing how the mob life affects your family. A lot of what constitutes 'cinema' actually depicts dysfunctional relationships, I mean, one of the best films of the year is Marriage Story, a movie about divorce.

I understand but we are entering different genres. Marriage Story is about divorce, Goodfellas is about mobsters lives, I don't expect to see super geniuses build suits of armor or near indestructible gods fighting giants in these films. Relationships between the main characters was the point of these movies. The central thrust of these movies are quite different. Relationships are largely tangential to the stories being told in superhero movies.

The thing with the MCU though is that every movie is intended to be a trilogy (or more), so there was tons of time to explore these relationships and give them greater depth and that really never happens. Two major developments in Tony Stark's relationship with Pepper; them breaking up (before the events in Civil War) and Tony Stark proposing (Homecoming) aren't actually shown on screen. Wouldn't these have been interesting to see as a plot line in an Iron Man film? Portman x Thor was so boring Taika Waititi cut that crap out and made for a much better film. Betty x Hulk was cut because Wheadon saw a gif of Widow x Hulk (Question; Did this actually go anywhere?).

I don't know about this. I think superhero film makers have made a conscious decision to move away from relationship drama. From 2008 down, most superhero movies have simply dispensed with the love story because of 1) how cliche' they've become 2) how little they add to the actual plot. Nolan did this in the DK trilogy, Thor had some goofy romance which was dispensed with (but could be coming back), GoTG had Gamora and Quill hook-up only for them to apparently go back to square one and the list goes on. Most superhero movies have gone down that line. Ultimately, most superhero romances boil down to "man gets great power and gets the girl", its a tired borderline sexist trope that film makers are right to avoid if they can't handle properly. There are obviously exceptions to this but to a large extent, that's what it comes down to.

Not every piece of 'cinema' has to be about relationships, but here is the thing, when they are displayed prominently they should feel authentic.

That's true..which is when they can't do it properly, it shouldn't be included at all. IMO, they don't add anything to the movies beyond bloat.

[ComicJunkie21]

I will say that in the Dark Knight and DKR batman's relationship did serve a purpose for the storyline. Especially in DKR his girlfriend was the real villain behind everything. Iron Mans love interest does serve a purpose too in helping add more layers to the character as well as helping show emotional growth.

Most other relationships in recent comic book films were fillers at best even Spiderman and MJ relationship which is actually supposed to be a nice chunk of his storyline. With how Endgame ended, I think we can all say that the hulk-black Widow subplot was a freaking WASTE of time.

[Midvillian1322]

I will say that in the Dark Knight and DKR batman's relationship did serve a purpose for the storyline. Especially in DKR his girlfriend was the real villain behind everything. Iron Mans love interest does serve a purpose too in helping add more layers to the character as well as helping show emotional growth.

Most other relationships in recent comic book films were fillers at best even Spiderman and MJ relationship which is actually supposed to be a nice chunk of his storyline. With how Endgame ended, I think we can all say that the hulk-black Widow subplot was a freaking WASTE of time.

I thinks that why the MCU hasnt had any disasters yet. They arent afraid to course correct and drop things that arent working. They do it with some of the romances and the biggest example would be Thor Ragnarok. Thor was probaly the least popular out of the Avengers with they're own films(Steve,Tony,Bruce, and him). They let Waititi come in and make a hard pivot off into a Flash Gordon inspired comedy and Thor became bigger then ever.

None of the MCU movies have been love stories. We have had comedy's,Heist Films, Political thriller, Afro-centric,Space opera,Sci-fi, and straight up action films. I dont think any of the films have ever tried to be about a love story. Though they dabbled

[WebLurker]

Yea it works and feels organic but they dont really try for any of the drama other relationships have.

Is that a bad thing? Seems like in these movies, the drama gets overdone or falls into predictable plot lines.