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  1. #106
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Martin Scorsese did put forward a definition of what constitutes part of cinema;



    Now I know what the response to this is going to be; that there are tons of moments where characters convey emotions! Well let's take a look a fairly defining feature of the human experience and used in the MCU, sexual and romantic relationships. I'll preface this by saying I stopped watching these films around GotG 2, but that's like 15 films so its more than enough to draw a consensus.

    There is pretty much a total absence of sex in the MCU, other than the implied situations where a couple have kids. This appears a conscious effort on the part of the MCU planners and more or less handicaps every character. Human beings are sexual beings, and lack of sexual appetite on behalf of nearly every character in the franchise is anathema to the lived experience of about 99% of human beings. People use to joke about Captain America being a virgin and yeah its funny, but it makes Captain America's character far less human when you actually consider that he likely is and seems unphased by it.

    You also can't have genuine romance without sex, which is why pretty much every MCU romance falls flat. One of the reasons why Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor's relationship feels so fresh is because they actually have intercourse. Its also the reason why MJ and Peter Parker's relationship feels authentic in the Raimi films. Sure I don't think there is a scene in any film that implies they've fornicated with one another, but the seen of MJ snogging on Spidey is iconic for a reason. So many of these MCU relationships feel like how children must imagine adult romance, where you simply hold hands and tepidly peck one another.
    Martin doesn't get to decide what is or isn't cinema anymore than you or I can. Not how it works. The fact that he believes it does is really the only reason we're having this conversation. If he simply said it was cinema he didn't like, this would all be moot.

  2. #107
    Fantastic Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    You clearly can't read the signs right. If a superhero movie does bad, then it's a sign of superhero fatigue is happening. If a superhero movie does well, it's a sign that superhero movies have peaked and that superhero fatigue is happening.
    I saw Dark Phoenix and Hellboy two comic book films do a mega flop in 2019. The SAME year Endgame and Captain Marvel did over a billion not even counting Spider-Man or Joker. How is a 4 over 2 win for comic book films a sign of fatigue? Also, the idea of bad movies being a sign of fatigue is kinda silly when people's opinions don't exactly make a fair measuring stick for the overall opinion on the genre.
    Last edited by Maestro 216; 01-09-2020 at 04:40 PM.

  3. #108
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    So y'all are gonna just let Pinsir distract you from the fact he never backed up assertion about journalists? He's not arguing in good faith here.

  4. #109
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The Golden Globes is an award given out by journalists and I believe the only MCU to be nominated for best picture is Black Panther.

    I don't get inclination on behalf of MCU fans to pretend most MCU films don't exist. If all MCU consisted of was Iron Man 1, GotG, Black Panther and a few others then yeah, the MCU would be pretty good, but its not. Its like 25 films or something and most of them are clearly forgettable.
    Being nominated for a Golden Globe and Not being Cinema is a huge jump. I just want to see where a majority of Journalists said that the MCU isnt cinema.

  5. #110
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    While I think Scorsese was biased in his opinion due to his age and maybe didn't express himself in the best way, he's not 100% wrong. While I think comic book movies are cinema, I think that if he said that most of the films are not made to have in depth storylines, writing or demand much from their actors in terms of challenging performances he would be more agreeable. I think people like the MCU because of the culmination of all the films over a 10 year period which is an amazing accomplishment however oscar worthiness is not measured by a culmination of films but by each film on their own.

    If you take away the universe aspect from the films and judge each film on it's own performance most will fall into the same area as western films and romantic comedies films when those types of films were popular.

    It's hard to compare the mcu to most franchises because of how it functions but here's a try. Look at the Lord of the Rings trilogy, each film stands on its own extremely well. Most people can watch one film from it and see amazing performances of individuals who are trying to portray someone completely different from themselves. Additionally, each screenplay is very well done. The MCU films on the other hand have okay acting but they have mediocre to great actors. RDJ is a great actor but Iron Man was not his best role by any means, it was just his comeback role to show that he had sobered up and was reliable as an actor again. RDJ did not try to portray someone else other than what he was, he played himself, which didnt require a lot of effort. The screenplays aren't awful by any stretch (see GOT S8 for an awful screenplay) but they aren't complex, sometimes not cohesive and can come across like advertisements to sell merchandise at times and they have multiple plotholes.

    If we're being honest about only a handful of comic book films have an overall good structure in place that could be argued to be have the items I stated earlier:

    Dark Knight
    Dark Knight Rises
    Batman
    Superman II
    Joker
    Logan
    Black Panther (imo this one fell short but it can be argued as well)

    Are comic book films enjoyable? YES!!!! 1 billion times YES!!! Are comic book movies oscar worthy? They can be but most have not been.

  6. #111
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    Joker was the best.

  7. #112

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    If a movie doesn’t have sex in it, it isn’t cinema?

    Dafuq did I just read?

  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    I saw Dark Phoenix and Hellboy two comic book films do a mega flop in 2019. The SAME year Endgame and Captain Marvel did over a billion not even counting Spider-Man or Joker. How is a 4 over 2 win for comic book films a sign of fatigue? Also, the idea of bad movies being a sign of fatigue is kinda silly when people's opinions don't exactly make a fair measuring stick for the overall opinion on the genre.
    He was being sardonic when he said, "You clearly can't read the signs right. If a superhero movie does bad, then it's a sign of superhero fatigue is happening. If a superhero movie does well, it's a sign that superhero movies have peaked and that superhero fatigue is happening." He meant there are people who are going to keep claiming superhero movies are fading no matter what the evidence is.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    I saw Dark Phoenix and Hellboy two comic book films do a mega flop in 2019. The SAME year Endgame and Captain Marvel did over a billion not even counting Spider-Man or Joker. How is a 4 over 2 win for comic book films a sign of fatigue? Also, the idea of bad movies being a sign of fatigue is kinda silly when people's opinions don't exactly make a fair measuring stick for the overall opinion on the genre.
    Yeah, I was try8ng to point out the bad logic “superhero fatigue” claims have.

    You do bring up a good point. We are now in the age when even the most die hard comic book/superhero fan will be choosy in what they watch. I have a signed copy of the first Hellboy trade and saw the GdT movies opening weekend. But I had no desire to see Hellboy, even on cable. Bad movies won’t get an audience in. For every successful reboot, two more fail because there are so many choices out there. Why waste tiime on something that doesn’t interest you? If it turns out to actually be good, you can always check it out later.

  10. #115
    Fantastic Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Yeah, I was try8ng to point out the bad logic “superhero fatigue” claims have.

    You do bring up a good point. We are now in the age when even the most die hard comic book/superhero fan will be choosy in what they watch. I have a signed copy of the first Hellboy trade and saw the GdT movies opening weekend. But I had no desire to see Hellboy, even on cable. Bad movies won’t get an audience in. For every successful reboot, two more fail because there are so many choices out there. Why waste tiime on something that doesn’t interest you? If it turns out to actually be good, you can always check it out later.
    That and with the option of streaming why pay to go see a film in a theater over the comfort of your own home? By then you will know for sure if a film is good or bad.

  11. #116
    The Nature Boy AnakinFlair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro 216 View Post
    That and with the option of streaming why pay to go see a film in a theater over the comfort of your own home? By then you will know for sure if a film is good or bad.

    I think there will always be movies that people will want to see in theaters at least once. Movies like Avatar, or The Dark Knight, or Avengers: Endgame.

  12. #117
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Being nominated for a Golden Globe and Not being Cinema is a huge jump.
    I agree being nominated for a Golden Globes isn't a great indicator if a film is cinema or not (or at least good cinema), but its a fairly decent base line.

    I just want to see where a majority of Journalists said that the MCU isnt cinema.
    I didn't say they had made that consensus, I said they will, if say that question was put forward to them. I could be wrong, sure, but its a conclusion inferred from reading and listening to critics.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I agree being nominated for a Golden Globes isn't a great indicator if a film is cinema or not (or at least good cinema), but its a fairly decent base line.



    I didn't say they had made that consensus, I said they will, if say that question was put forward to them. I could be wrong, sure, but its a conclusion inferred from reading and listening to critics.
    No, it;s not. It’s you projecting your own tastes on others and acting like it’s an accepted fact.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Martin doesn't get to decide what is or isn't cinema anymore than you or I can. Not how it works. The fact that he believes it does is really the only reason we're having this conversation. If he simply said it was cinema he didn't like, this would all be moot.
    He doesn't, but it's a question of weight. Scorsese is considered by a significant amount of people to be the most accomplished living American director, so his opinion on what cinema is, will hold much more weight to many more people

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    If a movie doesn’t have sex in it, it isn’t cinema?

    Dafuq did I just read?
    Yup, that's what you read! Porn is the greatest cinema known to mankind apparently.

    Arguments like that tend to happen when you play the game of making things mean whatever you want, regardless of their actual truth. The MCU IS cinema by any rational definition. Scorsese just tried to give his opinion more weight with a bogus argument. Much like "emotional conveyance needs sex to sell it".

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