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  1. #46
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I understand what they are getting at but this isn't the 70s. And when these guys were originally rebelling against the "institution" they had hardly attained the stature they have attained now.

    While I understand the consternation at Disney dominating cinema, Marvel started producing their movies before Disney acquired them. Other studios jumped on the shared universe train because they were successful at this. WB for example have been producing superhero movies for decades but decided to have a cohesive shared universe because of Marvel's success.

    Reading Coppola and Scorsese's statements (and even Ricky Gervais last night) what these guys are saying isn't the same as the "DCEU is good and MCU is bad" which is the point that I take issue with. They are making a general point against superhero movies but zeroing on Marvel because they are biggest around. WB would have produced practically as many superhero movies as Disney would have (we all remember that insane release schedule that WB put out years ago) but simply "couldn't" because their first attempts at the shared universe was met with mixed results at best. So to suggest that other companies are somehow more "ethical" than Disney is pretty ridiculous.
    The fact that these guys have attained the stature they have gives them every right to speak out. It is because of that reason that they SHOULD speak up. Up and coming movie makers can not speak out against Disney, Scorsese can.

    Big studio films dominated the screens before, too- that's what these guys were rebelling against in the 70s. It is nothing new.

    "DCEU is bad, MCU is good" or vice versa is fanboy talk. This has nothing to do with that. You're right that WB would have made a ton of FLASH movies if they could, but they didn't and Disney is the one behind all this. Fighting a quirky little flick like SHAZAM! isn't the fight here. We're not arguing about superheroes, we're arguing about assembly line filmmaking. You see one Marvel movie and you see them all, even with a guy like Ryan Coogler who is a fantastic director. They're corporate products, from top to bottom.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a Marvel character cannot be the star of a rad film, they have been- they're saying that big amusement park ride flicks are tiresome. I really think a lot of this boils down to brand loyalty and people do not want to say anything bad about Marvel or Disney, but these are faceless corporations- you do not have to like everything they build.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-06-2020 at 12:20 PM.

  2. #47
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The most bizarre thing is many people equating the MCU to the kind of movies these guys did in the '70s.

    When did Scorsese go, "Enough of these movies about gritty anti-heroes and villains as protagonists, let's do The Sound of Music II : The Marching Band."

    Okay, yeah Coppola made a Gangster movie on a big scale and gave it respect so you can squint and see that as a way of making genre film-making legitimate, but Coppola's The Godfather wasn't like any gangster movie that came before. The gangster doesn't go to jail, he doesn't get punished, he doesn't repent, or so on. The superhero equivalent to The Godfather would be, Logan more so than Iron Man. It wouldn't be a generic, conventional, version of a story where you root for uncritically with the good guy over the bad guy and think that being a hero is something that's easy, that's aspirational, or unproblematic.

    I mean Iron Man is an arms dealer who redeems himself. Coppola made Apocalypse Now, a movie about Vietnam that doesn't leave anyone redeemable at the end. The guy who's the hero, played by Martin Sheen, is still gonna massacre a boat full of innocent people for no real reason.
    Totally. The idea that the Godfather is in the same category as Thor 2: The Dark World is pretty ludicrous. They're not even on the same table of discussion.

    I do not think there's anything wrong with liking something like CAPTAIN MARVEL, but this idea that because it is enjoyable it demands to be viewed as the same entity as Blue Velvet is pretty absurd.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    The fact that these guys have attained the stature they have gives them every right to speak out. Up and coming movie makers can not speak out against Disney, Scorsese can.

    Big studio films dominated the screens before, too- that's what these guys were rebelling against in the 70s. It is nothing new.

    "DCEU is bad, MCU is good" or vice versa is fanboy talk. This has nothing to do with that. You're right that WB would have made a ton of FLASH movies if they could, but they didn't and Disney is the one behind all this. Fighting a quirky little flick like SHAZAM! isn't the fight here. We're not arguing about superheroes, we're arguing about assembly line filmmaking. You see one Marvel movie and you see them all, even with a guy like Ryan Coogler who is a fantastic director. They're corporate products, from top to bottom.

    I don't think anyone is saying that a Marvel character cannot be the star of a rad film, they have been- they're saying that big amusement park ride flicks are tiresome. I really think a lot of this boils down to brand loyalty and people do not want to say anything bad about Marvel or Disney, but these are faceless corporations- you do not have to like everything they build.
    Shazam and Joker are probably the cheapest comic book related movies that WB has put out recently. Most of their movies $150-$250 million monsters. WBs assembly line didn’t work out as planned, it’s not because WB suddenly changed their minds.

    I’m not saying Scorsese and co can’t say what they to say. Like I said before, not everything is for everyone. The point I’m making is just because some directors from an entirely different generation say something doesn’t mean that we all have to agree with everything they say. What they say isn’t gospel, it’s their opinion and they are allowed to have it. In another 40 years or so, I expect the current generation of film makers to rage against the “Paw Patrol” shared universe or whatever is dominating theaters then and I will simply be laughing in my rocking chair and letting the young ones know that this is cyclical and isn’t something to really spend weeks or months discussing.

    And suggesting that Aquaman and Shazam are somehow more different from each other than say Black Panther and Ant-man definitely falls under the fanboy argument of MCU is bad and DCEU is good. Like you rightly said, you don’t have to defend everything from a company but you are allowed to prefer content from ome company to another which really is what most of these arguments boil down to but are tied up behind Scorsese’s and co arguments.

  4. #49
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    Do we really need another thread about MCU fans complaining that Scorsese has an opinion on something

  5. #50
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Shazam and Joker are probably the cheapest comic book related movies that WB has put out recently. Most of their movies $150-$250 million monsters. WBs assembly line didn’t work out as planned, it’s not because WB suddenly changed their minds.

    I’m not saying Scorsese and co can’t say what they to say. Like I said before, not everything is for everyone. The point I’m making is just because some directors from an entirely different generation say something doesn’t mean that we all have to agree with everything they say. What they say isn’t gospel, it’s their opinion and they are allowed to have it. In another 40 years or so, I expect the current generation of film makers to rage against the “Paw Patrol” shared universe or whatever is dominating theaters then and I will simply be laughing in my rocking chair and letting the young ones know that this is cyclical and isn’t something to really spend weeks or months discussing.

    And suggesting that Aquaman and Shazam are somehow more different from each other than say Black Panther and Ant-man definitely falls under the fanboy argument of MCU is bad and DCEU is good. Like you rightly said, you don’t have to defend everything from a company but you are allowed to prefer content from ome company to another which really is what most of these arguments boil down to but are tied up behind Scorsese’s and co arguments.
    I do not care what company a movie comes out of, or what company a comic comes from, an album- nothing. I have zero interest in brand loyalty. Black Panther and Ant Man do look very similar, there is the Marvel/Disney watermark all over both of them. Logan does not have this, despite featuring Wolverine as a main character. Aquaman and Shazam do not look anything alike. It is what it is. A lot of this boils down to brand loyalty. Consumers get really upset when you say anything against Marvel or the Mouse.

    These things are only cyclical if we allow them to be. What Scorsese is trying to illustrate is that Disney is creating an environment that is not conducive to creativity. A lot of this is the megaplexes that Disney strongarms into showing Star Wars and Ant Man on 10 screens when there's only 15 screens total. That's important to call out, if we are going to actually have a new generation of people like Scorsese and Coppola who can make movies they want to make for wider audiences. There has to be avenues that don't go through "you have to make Thor 6".

    Streaming services will hopefully break this up. Not everybody is the audience for Disney, ya know?
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-06-2020 at 12:35 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    I do not care what company a movie comes out of, or what company a comic comes from, an album- nothing. I have zero interest in brand loyalty. Black Panther and Ant Man do look very similar, there is the Marvel/Disney watermark all over both of them. Logan does not have this, despite featuring Wolverine as a main character. Aquaman and Shazam do not look anything alike. It is what it is. A lot of this boils down to brand loyalty. Consumers get really upset when you say anything against Marvel or the Mouse.

    These things are only cyclical if we allow them to be. What Scorsese is trying to illustrate is that Disney is creating an environment that is not conducive to creativity. A lot of this is the megaplexes that Disney strongarms into showing Star Wars and Ant Man on 10 screens when there's only 15 screens total. That's important to call out, if we are going to actually have a new generation of people like Scorsese and Coppola who can make movies they want to make for wider audiences. There has to be avenues that don't go through "you have to make Thor 6".

    Streaming services will hopefully break this up. Not everybody is the audience for Disney, ya know?
    Let's move on from this fanboy argument of movies looking alike. The DC is good Marvel is bad argument is not a topic that interests me at all but you preferring DC to Marvel is fine. All your arguments pretty much boil down to this which is fine but it's a worn out topic.

    All this being said, there's been tons of good movies outside the traditional blockbusters that come out every year and some are very successful. We've had a pretty good year in film, folks would do well to actually look out for and support these filmmakers. Companies like A24 have been killing it but truth is, some of these film makers aren't as active as before and might not be aware of some of the great small scale stuff out there.

  7. #52
    Incredible Member basbash99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Do we really need another thread about MCU fans complaining that Scorsese has an opinion on something
    Well, this new thread seems precipitated by Terry Gilliam's comments, altho yeah its just gonna rehash the exact same arguments from the other threads. But tbh i don't think its so much mcu fans complaining about directors, it seems like its more anti-MCU folks using these comments to justify their screeds against Disney or whatever. I think mcu fans shrugged off Scorcese's comments awhile back.

    I'm not really sure Gilliam is one to talk anyhow, what was his last good movie... 12 Monkeys? 25 years ago. And even before that, his track record was kinda spotty. Although i'll always love Time Bandits and Brazil.

    I guess this is the new thing now. Ask an old-timey director about the mcu, use their comments to write clickbait articles and generate outrage. Pretty tiresome.. one can admire the great films these directors have made and still be an mcu fan, its not an either/or scenario.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    These things are only cyclical if we allow them to be. What Scorsese is trying to illustrate is that Disney is creating an environment that is not conducive to creativity. A lot of this is the megaplexes that Disney strongarms into showing Star Wars and Ant Man on 10 screens when there's only 15 screens total. That's important to call out, if we are going to actually have a new generation of people like Scorsese and Coppola who can make movies they want to make for wider audiences. There has to be avenues that don't go through "you have to make Thor 6".
    The problem I have with this argument can be summed up in two words: Peak Content.

    Today we have more scripted and unscripted material being produced and distributed than ever before. Besides the traditional model of movies shown in theaters, we have television (network, cable, premium channels), streaming (Netflix, Youtube, Hulu), and many other options. Anyone wanting to tell stories has more option available now than ever before. Scorsese has more options than ever before. We are going to see the new generation of people like Scorsese and Coppola, But we're going to see them at a variety of venues, not just at the local AMC.

    Complaining about MCU/Disney/blockbusters won't do a thing to get more people to the theater. It won't expand the window between a movie's theatrical release and when it's available on streaming. It won't lower ticket prices, or make babysitters more affordable. It won't make crowds quieter, or sound systems less blaring. It won't change make video games less popular, or movies harder to rent through Redbox.

    Instead, Scorsese is coming off as someone who after seeing the first Ford Model T, would complain about the lack of quality buggy whips.

  9. #54
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Let's move on from this fanboy argument of movies looking alike. The DC is good Marvel is bad argument is not a topic that interests me at all but you preferring DC to Marvel is fine. All your arguments pretty much boil down to this which is fine but it's a worn out topic.

    All this being said, there's been tons of good movies outside the traditional blockbusters that come out every year and some are very successful. We've had a pretty good year in film, folks would do well to actually look out for and support these filmmakers. Companies like A24 have been killing it but truth is, some of these film makers aren't as active as before and might not be aware of some of the great small scale stuff out there.
    This fanboy thing has been your entire argument. I've never said I prefer either or. Truth be told I'm not terribly into any of these movies. Occasionally there's a good one like Logan or Shazam, but that isn't the norm. Most of the time they're bloated and noisy, and I do not understand this insesant need for brand loyalty to Marvel or DC- just like stuff without being told to ya know?

    We can move on, obviously we see movie going as totally different things.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 01-06-2020 at 02:33 PM.

  10. #55
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Don't many Hollywood directors direct MCU movies? How can they hate the MCU?

    Also, I'm sure Coppola isn't impressed by Nicolas Cage for reasons other than his love of comics...
    Last edited by Pinsir; 01-06-2020 at 03:06 PM.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Do we really need another thread about MCU fans complaining that Scorsese has an opinion on something
    No more than we need one about Scorsese fans complaining The MCU still exists and is popular.

  12. #57
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    The last two threads, you mean?
    It's been more then two threads prior to this. And then similar threads under different pretenses before that.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Scorseses salty that Irishman has to go to Netflix and that his boomer esque (ie: not natural and a result of very specific circumstances) "golden age of cinema" ended.

    Gilliams taken 20 odd years to get a single movie out and recently said "White people are overtly demonised" so this kind of talk isnt surprising from the king of bad takes.
    This in a nutshell. There's also Gilliam's "men are the real victims" BS he's claiming as well.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    These things are only cyclical if we allow them to be. What Scorsese is trying to illustrate is that Disney is creating an environment that is not conducive to creativity. A lot of this is the megaplexes that Disney strongarms into showing Star Wars and Ant Man on 10 screens when there's only 15 screens total. That's important to call out, if we are going to actually have a new generation of people like Scorsese and Coppola who can make movies they want to make for wider audiences. There has to be avenues that don't go through "you have to make Thor 6".
    What is stopping them?
    Where is this rule you HAVE to show your film in a theater?

    Because as we have seen if you have to rely on the theater to get a film made let alone SEEN-you are going to get screwed depending on film content.
    What have we seen used against POC & LGBTQ content in some films like Black Panther & Star Wars? The OVERSEA MARKET.

    You have your new generation-they have choose to go a different route. They are using streaming and other markets.

    And what Marvel movie is Tyler Perry doing? He seems to be doing fine on his own.
    What Marvel movie is Adam Sandler doing? He's doing fine on Netflix. As is Marlon Wayans.

    Also is that Disney strong arming or the THEATER choosing to do that? Remember movie theaters get to pick and choose what films they show at a given location. Sometimes a year or months in advance.

    Maybe just MAYBE showing say Black Panther on 10 out of 15 screens might have something to do with folks buying up tickets in advance??? So YEAH I would take a movie that no one was going to see off and put the one folks wanted to see on the screen.

    Also not all movies show EVERYDAY. Get Out was SUPPOSED to be yanked from showing at the theater I normally go to. That is why I went on an EARLY Friday to see it because I looked at the schedule for that theater and it was going to be GONE at least the next 3 weeks.

    When it came out number one-guess what film suddenly had showings for those 3 weeks?


    If those dinos have an issue with it-insulting Disney is not going to fix it. They need to have a talk with the PUBLIC. WHo are going to theses movies. Disney can only do what the PUBLIC allows.

  15. #60
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    What is stopping them?
    Where is this rule you HAVE to show your film in a theater?

    Because as we have seen if you have to rely on the theater to get a film made let alone SEEN-you are going to get screwed depending on film content.
    What have we seen used against POC & LGBTQ content in some films like Black Panther & Star Wars? The OVERSEA MARKET.

    You have your new generation-they have choose to go a different route. They are using streaming and other markets.

    And what Marvel movie is Tyler Perry doing? He seems to be doing fine on his own.
    What Marvel movie is Adam Sandler doing? He's doing fine on Netflix. As is Marlon Wayans.

    Also is that Disney strong arming or the THEATER choosing to do that? Remember movie theaters get to pick and choose what films they show at a given location. Sometimes a year or months in advance.

    Maybe just MAYBE showing say Black Panther on 10 out of 15 screens might have something to do with folks buying up tickets in advance??? So YEAH I would take a movie that no one was going to see off and put the one folks wanted to see on the screen.

    Also not all movies show EVERYDAY. Get Out was SUPPOSED to be yanked from showing at the theater I normally go to. That is why I went on an EARLY Friday to see it because I looked at the schedule for that theater and it was going to be GONE at least the next 3 weeks.

    When it came out number one-guess what film suddenly had showings for those 3 weeks?


    If those dinos have an issue with it-insulting Disney is not going to fix it. They need to have a talk with the PUBLIC. WHo are going to theses movies. Disney can only do what the PUBLIC allows.
    Do you work for Disney?

    If you do, can you get Adam Sandler to direct Star Wars? I'll love you for life.

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