The recent behavior of the X-Men: right or wrong?

[Astroman]

That’s what people are afraid to face. We are the villains. Our culture of consumption has brought the planet to its knees. Many species no longer exist because of us. The most heroic thing mutantkind could do is collapse our current institutions and power structures, forcing us off fossil fuels, capping our population, and halting our sprint to deforest the planet and acidify the oceans.

That, very excellent point, gets to one of the reasons I think many are responding so vehemently against Hick and Co's take on the X-franchise: The mutants are no longer, primarily, a power fantasy escapism where we get to identify with them. They are now a somewhat alien and accusatory reflector of our failings and are calling us to Adapt and Evolve... or else be swept away by our own inadequacy.

[pkingdom]

That’s what people are afraid to face. We are the villains. Our culture of consumption has brought the planet to its knees. Many species no longer exist because of us. The most heroic thing mutantkind could do is collapse our current institutions and power structures, forcing us off fossil fuels, capping our population, and halting our sprint to deforest the planet and acidify the oceans.

That, very excellent point, gets to one of the reasons I think many are responding so vehemently against Hick and Co's take on the X-franchise: The mutants are no longer, primarily, a power fantasy escapism where we get to identify with them. They are now a somewhat alien and accusatory reflector of our failings and are calling us to Adapt and Evolve... or else be swept away by our own inadequacy.

If that's the kind of story you are interested in, I highly recommend reading Immortal Hulk. Its doing exactly that kind of story and addressing those exact things, but in a way I'm finding sooooooo much more compelling. Its also not afraid to take a step back and realize the flaws in its characters and their reasoning.

You're never going to fix everyone but...
Apocalypse
Black Tom
Proteus
Selene
Exodus
and those are just the ones we've seen or heard about so far (Obviously this will change as there is zero chance Marvel will let that many villains go)

As far as the Marauders... You are 100% right. Technically (and this has not been adroitly handled by Duggan I freely admit) the reason they are called the Marauders is so that they are not officially associated with the X-Men. Ultimatly it works because comic books and because the books fun. Its a very loose plot point, but not significant enough that I'm going to worry about.

I come from a legal and history background, so I can't get behind Marauders. Same reason I can't watch any crime dramas. I wish they going the Underground Railroad route and smuggled people out of countries in a sneaky way. When I see Storm leading a charge on the Brazilian navy I'm like "DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU ARE DOING?! STOP THAT! YOU'RE BASICALLY DECLARING WAR WITH YOUR 1 MONTH OLD COUNTRY OVER KIDS WHO'S NAMES WE DON'T EVEN KNOW!"

[Zelena]

To what extent are real world minority concerns and feelings driving some of you to agree wholeheartedly with Krakoa? It's a full on minority power fantasy now: having power over your oppressors and treating your difference as superiority. A lot of us here are from marginalized communities, whether racial or gender or sexual preference, but is rallying behind Krakoa and its tactics wholeheartedly a good way to explore and celebrate the marginalized having power in fiction? I unfortunately see that as becoming the bully and adopting the bully's tactics. There must be a better way. I see the favourable and the questionable sides of what the mutants are doing but to see some posters wholeheartedly supporting them and engaging in non-mutant derogatory slang/slurs and thinking is disheartening to say the least. I swear I've seen some portions of this forum get X-radicalized since Dawn of X began, and I can't tell if that's just going along with a joke or the sign of base humanity acting out the minute it gets a bit of power/control.

That, I find illogical… we are baseline humans. When I read a comic, I don't forget who I am…

More than 'the X-men are wrong' or 'the X-men are wrong'… what I find more interesting, are they still the X-men in the way they were created by the original creators? What does it mean to put X-men in the front of a cover? "Protect a world that fears and hates them"? Won't the world feel a bit smothered by this love and protection while, in the same time, hating them?

[Zelena]

That, very excellent point, gets to one of the reasons I think many are responding so vehemently against Hick and Co's take on the X-franchise: The mutants are no longer, primarily, a power fantasy escapism where we get to identify with them. They are now a somewhat alien and accusatory reflector of our failings and are calling us to Adapt and Evolve... or else be swept away by our own inadequacy.

Their powers make them so different from us?

Edit: I agree on the fact they feel alien to me now which has never been the case before. Before, writers have been able to make me feel what they felt and I felt close to them. There were no divisions between mutants and 'humans' in my mind and heart.

[Kisinith]

I come from a legal and history background, so I can't get behind Marauders. Same reason I can't watch any crime dramas. I wish they going the Underground Railroad route and smuggled people out of countries in a sneaky way. When I see Storm leading a charge on the Brazilian navy I'm like "DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU ARE DOING?! STOP THAT! YOU'RE BASICALLY DECLARING WAR WITH YOUR 1 MONTH OLD COUNTRY OVER KIDS WHO'S NAMES WE DON'T EVEN KNOW!"

I'm a history teacher so I know exactly what your talking about, the Marauders in a real world setting is an open declaration of war however... Comic books aren't exactly know for their strict adherence to sound legal or historical principles.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

That, I find illogical… we are baseline humans. When I read a comic, I don't forget who I am…

More than 'the X-men are wrong' or 'the X-men are wrong'… what I find more interesting, are they still the X-men in the way they were created by the original creators? What does it mean to put X-men in the front of a cover? "Protect a world that fears and hates them"? Won't the world feel a bit smothered by this love and protection while, in the same time, hating them?

Lol, dude speak for yourself! Apparently autism's a genetic mutation!!

[Zelena]

I have always saw them is the most human and heroic characters at marvel along with Spider-man precisely because they do the right thing despite being hated for doing it, decimation didn`t change that for me at all, but that era brought elements to the story that have to be adressed for their story to go on imo, like imagine millions of mutants at this point have been victims of global bigotry, and the X-men are supposed to see that and keep being heroes from their mansion in NY? That would not be them imo but I can see the criticism of them not feeling like heroes at the moment even if I find that unfair.

For me the best X-men story has been Age of Apocalypse, not because it was full of badass moments but because those X-men sacrificed themselves believing it was neccesary to bring a world worth living for everyone, a world they would never get to see, that`s the epitome of what the X-men are about but I will give Hickman time to tell his story, because he likes to play with the characters and the readers pov and I hope it`s worth it to read the story to the end.

For me, the persecution part of the X-men mythology is not to show how fair it is that X-men are doing what they do but it is there to put them on edge and to pressure them. It is there to highlight their strength and faith in their beliefs, and certainly not to paint them in a sordid way and to pity them. The X-men have never felt miserable to me because of the 'humans', they have always been to "raise above". And so has Spider-man, so alike us, at our level, with the same problems we have, fighting the crime on his spare-time, receiving no credit for that, far from it, just doing what he feels right.
His most remarkable virtue was his fortitude, not his powers.

I'm not saying the X-men shouldn't do anything while mutants are killed. But they should question the things they have to do in light of the people they always have been… Otherwise, why calling them X-men?

[Zelena]

Lol, dude speak for yourself! Apparently autism's a genetic mutation!!

From this point of view, we are all mutants, we have evolved… since the first cell.

[From The Shadows]

Yeah, it’s interesting how upsetting it is to people when the oppressed minority decides not to sit there and take it anymore and how words like “unheroic” get thrown around.

Things have changed a lot since the earlier days of internet comic forums and the last I left them (and Marvel Comics - you ruined CC's awesome XSE plans!) around 2004 people did not take the minority metaphor so to heart. I returned for 'Second Coming.' Heck, I remember the last I left it when it was still up for debate whether the X-Men were minorities or or just outcasts in general and it was still open to interpretation. People were also still debating the MLK/Malcom X analogy. Just remember when you say" Cyclops or Magneto Was Right" (not actually you the poster I'm posting to) That's what white supremacists said about Hitler and used the exact words "Hitler Was Right." Also, are we not humans ourselves? The X-Men are also pointing fingers at the jews, blacks and gays in these mobs or crowds on Washington. This is discrimination against powers as ridiculous as it sounds. Amazingly enough the X-Men got a bunch of humans (us) to sympathize with them. Lets add moviegoers as well.

Eh black america has been trying to coexist for a long time and despite all that they still act like 12% of the population is creating all the crimes. They still try to silence us with All lives matter if we dare say Black lives matter they act like they don't know what it means. Mutant lives Matter and at the end of the day there is no ideal coexistence. It won't happen unless the bigots want it to happen and there is not a damn thing the mutants can do to change that and unfortunately thats just the fact of the matter. There will ALWAYS be those that hate the OTHER. How long has britian been around? And even there there is still racial tensions that seem to quiet and then get worse depending who is in power and the people who only speak up when they want to say ALL lives matters and do little to nothing else are the ones who embolden those bigots and make it worse. It's not small town mentality, it's human selfishness and entitlement and nothing, nothing will change the hearts of those who don't have one so the only thing one can do is find a safe place and reach out to those who do and change the hearts of those they can and wait for those who never will to disappear. And hopefully it can be done without letting hate into your own heart.

Magneto doesnt want to hear about your black man problems since you are still just a human, ones that Marvel artists themselves insert into the mob scenes and they don't mind their extinction. Do they even think of other minorities?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Do they even think of other minorities?

That's a pretty interesting question; I know Magneto's appeared to have cast off his Jewishness, regarding religion as a 'human' matter...which is especially interesting considering that's a major part of his history and what informs his beliefs, having being a prisoner of the Nazi concentration camps. Kitty on the other hand was seen to have still been practicing as recently as last year's Christmas annual and, not long before that, made mention of how it was still an important part of her identity. She even had a Rabbi to perform at her wedding.

Dust we haven't seen yet; Shan still has a prosthetic leg, so there's at least one disabled mutant about, but we have yet to see any invisibly-disabled mutants (neurodiverse and the like...that, ya know, isn't played as evil.) Dani still appears to be wearing Cheyenne inspired dress but...considering how disparagingly she was talking of 'human institutions' and such...it's hard to say if she still embraces that as an important part of her anymore.

I wouldn't have thought race would ever have been a problem amongst the X-Men though. I mean Sinister's worked with Nazi's, like, but that is Sinister...he doesn't care so long as the genes are perfect.

[From The Shadows]

That, very excellent point, gets to one of the reasons I think many are responding so vehemently against Hick and Co's take on the X-franchise: The mutants are no longer, primarily, a power fantasy escapism where we get to identify with them. They are now a somewhat alien and accusatory reflector of our failings and are calling us to Adapt and Evolve... or else be swept away by our own inadequacy.

Or its the Darwinism. When mutants are educating humans that mutants are the next stage of human evolution and telling people they are the future, well, I already said the word, thats like telling people they are cavemen in comparison. You see some of those documenterys with humans with horns or an extra nose and they are classified as defects but when modern comics started introducing more strange looking mutants - Not Nightcrawler strange - but close to RL well... do you know where I'm going with this? Circus sideshows had some of them, Kurt grew up with them but see he's a different kind of mutant. No one wants to be that old lady with the horns and she's not saying shes the future. I'm sorry when you have the power of a god and have access to fancy alien tech, fancy jets and mansions it puts it in some perspective and on top of that you have the much more educated and, ahem... polite explanation of mutants it puts things in perspective. I'm not saying its ok to treat anyone badly for being different. Things like DoFP, GLMK and The Extinction Agenda are horrible things that humans have done to mutants and those things should be condemned.

[From The Shadows]

Damn! I've got get rid of this spell checking app I didn't even want. I keep having to misspell these words because it shows an error when its spelled correctly then deletes it. My last post had a ton of errors. I disabled it. I double checked on google to make sure I wasn't going crazy with the spelling. And "surreal is not a known word?" Anyone else have this?

[Lucyinthesky]

For me, the persecution part of the X-men mythology is not to show how fair it is that X-men are doing what they do but it is there to put them on edge and to pressure them. It is there to highlight their strength and faith in their beliefs, and certainly not to paint them in a sordid way and to pity them. The X-men have never felt miserable to me because of the 'humans', they have always been to "raise above". And so has Spider-man, so alike us, at our level, with the same problems we have, fighting the crime on his spare-time, receiving no credit for that, far from it, just doing what he feels right.
His most remarkable virtue was his fortitude, not his powers.

I'm not saying the X-men shouldn't do anything while mutants are killed. But they should question the things they have to do in light of the people they always have been… Otherwise, why calling them X-men?

Agreed we will need to see a little more of the X-MEN pov apart from Xavier`s, Moira`s, Wolverine or Emma but tbf so far what they have done is build a place for mutants to be safe, make laws and participate in comerce, add themselves to the UN which of course also means they will have to be part of the UN rules which involve human rights, diplomacy, political and economic relations with other countries etc. all this does not go agaist their values of wanting to be part of the comunity or to coexist that`s why my main problem with Hickman`s writting has not been the actions themselves, they make a lot of sense given the context of mutants in the MU, it`s the language used by some of the characters I don`t like and it`s implications.

So far their most grey action has been their alliance with their former adversaries, but apart of Xavier letting them know they will not protect them if they break Krakoa`s laws and they pretty much can and will punish them, we have not seem more comments from the X-men, I agree we need to see more of that for the story to make sense.

[jwatson]

Things have changed a lot since the earlier days of internet comic forums and the last I left them (and Marvel Comics - you ruined CC's awesome XSE plans!) around 2004 people did not take the minority metaphor so to heart. I returned for 'Second Coming.' Heck, I remember the last I left it when it was still up for debate whether the X-Men still minorities or outcasts in general and it was still open to interpretation. People were also still debating the MLK/Malcom X analogy. Just remember when you say Cyclops or Magneto Was Right (not actually you the poster I'm posting to) That's what white supremacists said about Hitler and used the exact words "Hitler Was Right." Also, are we not humans ourselves? The X-Men are also pointing fingers at the jews, blacks and gays in these mobs or crowds on Washington. This is discrimination against powers as ridiculous as it sounds.



Magneto doesnt want to hear about your black man problems since you are still just a human, ones that Marvel artists themselves insert into the mob scenes and they don't mind their extinction. Do they even think of other minorities?

Eh. Magneto is fiction. Real life people don't want to hear it, they rather complain about the injustices the oppressors are facing in fiction than those they themselves try to oppress in real life and then bicariously live through that as a way to vent those feelings they have about what they would feel like if minorities took it to the next level in real life. *Shrugs* like daring to say their lives matter.

[Huntsman Spider]

Eh. Magneto is fiction. Real life people don't want to hear it, they rather complain about the injustices the oppressors are facing in fiction than those they themselves try to oppress in real life and then bicariously live through that as a way to vent those feelings they have about what they would feel like if minorities took it to the next level in real life. *Shrugs* like daring to say their lives matter.

Pretty much. All this handwringing about Krakoans committing anti-human pogroms and massacres, if not flat-out genocide against humans, really amounts to the fear many of those same people have of answering someday for the role they themselves may have played, even if only by virtue of "staying neutral," in the continued oppression and marginalization of others in the real world that human society's oppression and marginalization of mutants parallels, albeit imperfectly. "The chickens coming home to roost," as it were.

Another way of putting it, to paraphrase some great civil rights activists and advocates, would be that if you are neutral in situations of injustice and oppression, that is much the same as siding with those that commit injustice. After all, if an elephant is stepping on a mouse's tail and you choose to do nothing to help either, it's not like the mouse will appreciate your neutrality, as you've only left that elephant in a position where it may continue doing harm to that mouse unabated.

To relate this back to the current situation with mutants, humans, and Krakoa, while mutants may be more powerful as individuals, as a socio-politically, economically, and culturally marginalized group, they are at far greater risk of unpunished systemic harm or violence inflicted upon them. Humans will of course be defended by the likes of the law, and where that fails, the Avengers or the Fantastic Four or other miscellaneous heroes. On the other hand, who stands up to defend mutants when they are not only failed, but actively targeted for wholesale sanction and even extermination, by the law? That's why Krakoa exists, whether any of us like it or not; it is, to reiterate my earlier point in this discussion, an indictment of human bigotry towards mutants and human (as well as superhuman) indifference to mutant lives.