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  1. #31
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    And that's the deal, the only feasible way to apply pressure is voting. And nothing else really.
    This is absolutely, 100 percent false. There are tons of things to do other than voting.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    This is absolutely, 100 percent false. There are tons of things to do other than voting.
    Like what?

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Like what?
    Letters of complaint (typically one is ignored...but if dozens of letters on same topic from different senders come...some useful changes often come about on local issues), and protest marches.

    And the one that was a massive catalyst for change in my own country..organising into unions to allow collective bargaining.

    And..like a typical old fogey...no doubt missed a ton of modern methods. For example..now so many people have good cameras on phone there’s a ton of potential to expose wrong doing by corrupt officials.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Letters of complaint are ignored unless they are on mass.

    Marches only work in that they draw attention to an issue. In and of themselves they don’t do much, and can even be co opted( see the occupy movement)

    Unions only work in countries with strong collectivist cultures.

    All these things have their place. But none of them are really a substitute for voting.

  5. #35
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    The political system in the US is set up for community involvement. The big challenge is cynicism and apathy. There are a ton of voices out there and how do you get attention among so many? Not as hard as you might think if there is a will there is a way. Also the big challenge is ignorance. People just assume they can't change things.

    Here are some examples:

    -Spending time and money on interest groups, lobby groups, PACs and SuperPACs, advocacy groups, etc.
    -Creating media.
    -Becoming well-informed and writing letters, emails, etc.
    -Organizing people groups for change. Protesting.
    -Speaking out in places that matter, like at Public Hearings or various civic meetings.
    -Participating in the political process in a paid or unpaid way.
    -Getting involved in grass roots political efforts.
    -Conducting studies and taking (and publishing) polls.
    -Gathering intelligence and learning about the system and where power is concentrated.
    -Learning to identify "windows of opportunity" in government when you can most affect change.

    Mainly, spending time and using personal skills to effect change. People have more power than they think, but the trap they fall into is thinking that their only power is through voting or making random complaints.

    Look at Greta Thunberg. You never know what might work. I know a guy who went and hung out at political conventions, crashed some of them, and eventually became pretty influential. Just from being there and being passionate about it, and sooner or later people in power noticed.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  6. #36
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Both sides blah, blah, blah. If you don't see a difference these days, you are willfully blind.
    They're not the EXACT same no, obviously. But they're closer than people would like on certain issues. At least when it comes to establishment Democrats and Republicans. Now if you're talking about people like "the squad" on the left, and their equivalent on the right then yeah there's a HUGE difference. But at the top all I see is asymmetrical polarization in which the right moved all the way to the far right, while democrats moved closer to the centre right (from the center
    I might add). We need to push the Overton window to the left.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    They're not the EXACT same no, obviously. But they're closer than people would like on certain issues. At least when it comes to establishment Democrats and Republicans. Now if you're talking about people like "the squad" on the left, and their equivalent on the right then yeah there's a HUGE difference. But at the top all I see is asymmetrical polarization in which the right moved all the way to the far right, while democrats moved closer to the centre right (from the center
    I might add). We need to push the Overton window to the left.
    Exactly.

    And both parties know that they can keep things at "Center-Right" as long as they make sure it is a difficult as possible for every other party to compete. Just put it in "Neutral" and keep on getting paid.

  8. #38
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The political system in the US is set up for community involvement. The big challenge is cynicism and apathy. There are a ton of voices out there and how do you get attention among so many? Not as hard as you might think if there is a will there is a way. Also the big challenge is ignorance. People just assume they can't change things.

    Here are some examples:

    -Spending time and money on interest groups, lobby groups, PACs and SuperPACs, advocacy groups, etc.
    -Creating media.
    -Becoming well-informed and writing letters, emails, etc.
    -Organizing people groups for change. Protesting.
    -Speaking out in places that matter, like at Public Hearings or various civic meetings.
    -Participating in the political process in a paid or unpaid way.
    -Getting involved in grass roots political efforts.
    -Conducting studies and taking (and publishing) polls.
    -Gathering intelligence and learning about the system and where power is concentrated.
    -Learning to identify "windows of opportunity" in government when you can most affect change.

    Mainly, spending time and using personal skills to effect change. People have more power than they think, but the trap they fall into is thinking that their only power is through voting or making random complaints.

    Look at Greta Thunberg. You never know what might work. I know a guy who went and hung out at political conventions, crashed some of them, and eventually became pretty influential. Just from being there and being passionate about it, and sooner or later people in power noticed.
    Maybe, but protesting is a mixed bag. I've heard of people getting fired for protesting, and that's job security. Most people aren't going to protest because of their work. People need their jobs, hell people will run over protesters cause they don't want to be late for their job.

    What I think MIGHT change things is if the public had better information, because let's be honest here, the MSM is terrible. Even the so called "liberal media" tow the line of the status quo.

  9. #39
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    ...Look at Greta Thunberg. You never know what might work. I know a guy who went and hung out at political conventions, crashed some of them, and eventually became pretty influential. Just from being there and being passionate about it, and sooner or later people in power noticed.
    Note: what follows is not to dispute or minimize the dangers of climate change.

    Greta Thunberg is a media story, not a movement. Yes, some are acting on her message, almost universally in small isolated, powerless pockets. Thurnberg's story is getting such play because the Entertainment Industry masquerading as Free Press is keenly aware of what an eye-catching story this makes: The Bold Young Activist Joan of Arcing against The Machine.

    Nor is her stand without meaning. Potentially. If we have the will..

    We should remember that overturning The Established Way is no mean thing. It means hardship for all, undoubtedly for the greater good, but hardship. Unless enough of us are willing to do without those things that enrich the Wealthy for protracted periods of time, unless we are willing to pay what necessities cost without the efficiencies of exploitative industry, it's simply a story arc.

    Compelling? Yes. Historically important? Could be. Replaceable by the next story Entertainment Media finds catchy? Absolutely.

    Those things that truly change civilization from within? They tend to look more like The French Revolution than Occupy Wall Street.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    The main problem is both parties have been taken over by the radical extremes. The radical Left and the radical Right. To be seen as a centerist [which is what you want in your leaders] is considered treasonist by the far ends of both parties. The radical wings of both parties get hung up on one or two issues and that is all they care about (guns on the right and gender issues on the left as examples) so it is easy to play them because everyone knows just how they are going to react. Want to stir up the right start talking about taking their guns away. Want to get the Left going talk about implied discrimination about something. It is so easy and so cheap everyone does it. Both parties have let the loud minority drown out the quite minority in their parties and the people we get running for office now show that.

    The party lines have been dug so deep no one wants to work together anymore out of fear of upsetting the radicals in their parties.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Like what?
    Educate yourself on both sides of the issue. Don't be willing to take one side 100%.

    Right now we got too much accepting of one side of the story.

    Example Black Lives Matter will scream they want cops to bust bad cops. Interesting they won't do the same for bad black folks who represent the reason WHY you got cops in your hood in the first place.

    Folks will scream public schools are bad and charter is the future. Yet won't take a moment to look at the RULES a public school has to abide by charters don't. Most charters don't accept Special education students and can REJECT any kids. Public can not.

    Hit folks with LEGIT data. Lets say you got a politician trying to reform welfare laws to screw over POC. Show him the data that shows who REALLY uses those services the most. He will change his mind.

    For those who are pro-cop-ask them why data (in some states) show the main victims of death by cop are white guys and those cops are RARELY held accountable. So why are you fighting BLM who is asking for accountability and better training?

    Look for what can be changed without laws being passed. Look at the Clinton Crime bill or all these alternative schools for bad kids. If there was a bigger push for parental accountability-you wouldn't need them.

    Marches don't work. Boycotting does. If folks who really felt that strong about Kaep stopped buying Nike even to the point of not supporting sport teams that use Nike and hurt the bottom line of sport teams, video games that have Nike in them and so on-guess who Nike will DUMP. See we got folks who talk that talk but don't go all out.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member tbaron's Avatar
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    I put a lot of blame on American voters for our government. We all say we want something different then vote for the same thieves and liars every election. We claim to hate the two party system but then third party candidates draw less then 5 percent. And that is if they are lucky. I have fallen into this trap. The candidate tells me what I want to hear and I fall for it. I regret voting for Trump very much. I have been doing more and more research into politics over the last few months and have learned alot. I hope I dont fall into this trap this year. I dont know who I will vote for yet. But I know it wont be for Captain Crazy.
    Last edited by tbaron; 01-24-2020 at 05:06 AM.
    Favorite teams. Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member tbaron's Avatar
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    The system is broken and we as Americans played a big role in that. And things wont get better until we accept responsibility for that. Too many people do nothing to change it. I was apathetic to it for the longest time. Now I engage in voting. Protest marches even though deep down they dont do much. Politicians pretend to care bout the protesters cause and tell us what we want to hear so we will vote for the. And I am getting into prison reform efforts. As a former inmate myself I feel I can bring something to the table. My knowledge is limited I admit that. But I am studying and learning and trying to adapt. Something too few people are unwilling to do. This goes for both Dems and Republicans.
    Last edited by tbaron; 01-24-2020 at 08:57 AM.
    Favorite teams. Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The main problem is both parties have been taken over by the radical extremes. The radical Left and the radical Right. To be seen as a centerist [which is what you want in your leaders] is considered treasonist by the far ends of both parties. The radical wings of both parties get hung up on one or two issues and that is all they care about (guns on the right and gender issues on the left as examples) so it is easy to play them because everyone knows just how they are going to react. Want to stir up the right start talking about taking their guns away. Want to get the Left going talk about implied discrimination about something. It is so easy and so cheap everyone does it. Both parties have let the loud minority drown out the quite minority in their parties and the people we get running for office now show that.

    The party lines have been dug so deep no one wants to work together anymore out of fear of upsetting the radicals in their parties.
    The Democrats aren't taken over by the "radical" Left. The Far Left are a tiny minority of the party which has a loud voice in the media, they're not engulfing in the leadership slots that centrists or liberals are. Pelosi is a liberal, not a Leftist. Most of leadership fit this mould. It's why 9/10 "moderates" beat Leftist candidates in elections and why AOC is an exception of popularity rather than the rule for the Far Left.

    America is deeply polarised and that's the Republican doing. They've been going further and further right for decades.

  15. #45
    Spectacular Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    American voters are less informed and dumber in the 21st century than they were around 30 years ago. They have a responsibility to elect good leaders but unfortunately they aren't educated and informed enough to understand the issues (civil rights, abortion, climate change, global affairs, national security, etc) that affect their lives. They may have abused the privilege because they do not understand the political issues when they were electing their leaders.

    Most of the states that elected Trump into office are sparsely populated, rural and agricultural states.

    Maybe the states should re-introduce literacy tests to allow well-informed voters to only participate in the voting, so that the rednecks and trailer park people cannot vote in the elections anymore.

    In the past the voters were required to pass literacy tests in order to register. But the restriction was intended to prevent the black voters from voting. The literacy tests rule also restricted the poor and illiterate whites, especially the illiterate rural rednecks who never enrolled in a university.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test

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