The Outsiders Appreciation/Discussion thread 2020

[Robanker]

I actually don't mind Duke on Outsiders, I like the idea of him forgoing the usually junior league route most young heroes follow and going pro on one of the higher profile (in-universe) teams. Although I do like the idea of him on Teen Titans as the resident Gothamite hero and would definitely prefer that if he got to lead it; I mean he does have significantly more experience as an effective leader than Damian did when he took over . however, I'm only down if he were the leader and DC has a strict hierarchy that they think they have to uphold. I wouldn't want him joining up just for Damian to come back and he gets screwed over for it. Duke should be about 18 now, if Outsiders isn't in the cards I think a good move would be to send him and Cass to the Titans and start them on their path to Justice League status.

See, I hate to say it, but I don't know any Gothamites that Duke can actually shine opposite of save perhaps Harper Row. He just hasn't been successful nor does he have any champions in editorial it seems, save Snyder, but even he's not doing much with him. Cass would outshine him, be more popular and have more fans in the writer's room. He'd become as much a lead as Dinah was when she was leading the JLA-- in name only. Cass would eventually take it from him like the Trinity did Dinah. He needs to be Gotham's only representative on that team if he's going to have a chance.

They work well together in Outsiders because neither has the chance to really drive the team. It's going to fall to Jeff or Tatsu, so both can just be junior members. Take that veteran level away and, well, Duke will have a lot of competition. For that reason I wouldn't have Starfire on the team either.

I was telling myself Outsiders was Duke's last chance for me to care about him and here I am giving him one, real last shot before I stop caring. I won't actively dislike him, but I'll just stop paying him mind until someone can make the guy stick. I really like that he became "Robin" as part of a movement and didn't actually properly become one because it frees him from that cycle and having to compete with the others. I want that to work. It's like Steph as Spoiler before she graduated to Robin/Batgirl. He can be his own thing and Gotham really needs that, but yeah, I'm not sure it's going to happen. Want to be wrong, though.

[king81992]

Isabella has a rather narrow view of what/who Black Lightning should be and that really limits the character's potential. Hitch's way wasn't much better, a book that he advertised as being about promoting Black Lightning devolved into a long and boring proxy was between Batman and Ras Al Ghul. I've seen people criticizing the TV show because 'Black Lightning gets shafted to push his daughters' but its the only thing keeping him relevant.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Isabella annoys the living sh@t out of me. Cold Dead Hands was utter trash and then to spit on Anissa and Jen by making them his cousins? BLEH

I agree with him and Batman's overexposure but to constantly act like his BL was the best when it wasn't is hilarious.

I think he has a valid point in trying to keep BL as a true blue hero, but beyond that, yeah.

Times move on, and I think some writers simply can't keep up.

That said, this incarnation of Outsiders was utter rubbish. It felt like it was half a nostalgia tour with BL and Katana, and half a holding group for Batman with Duke and Cass. That wasn't at all helped by the fact that the cast was basically 4 members who IMO never had meaningful interaction with one another

[Frontier]

This kind of makes me want to see the book relaunched with more classic members, Thunder and Lightning, and maybe Cass as Batgirl? Probably too much to hope for .

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

Isabella has a rather narrow view of what/who Black Lightning should be and that really limits the character's potential. Hitch's way wasn't much better, a book that he advertised as being about promoting Black Lightning devolved into a long and boring proxy was between Batman and Ras Al Ghul. I've seen people criticizing the TV show because 'Black Lightning gets shafted to push his daughters' but its the only thing keeping him relevant.

A lot of fans don’t like Batman to be on the Justice league or having any Robins or Batgirls. So if Isabella doesn’t like the Outsiders or the daughters, then I imagine his preferences may not be uncommon or not understandable. But as you said, if the guy wants his character to be successful, particularly a b-lister like Jeff, I can’t see how it could be wise to be so picky on what bridges to keep or burn.

[The tall man]

Isabella has a rather narrow view of what/who Black Lightning should be and that really limits the character's potential. Hitch's way wasn't much better, a book that he advertised as being about promoting Black Lightning devolved into a long and boring proxy was between Batman and Ras Al Ghul. I've seen people criticizing the TV show because 'Black Lightning gets shafted to push his daughters' but its the only thing keeping him relevant.

I would say that Jeff's daughters are only relevant because of their connection to him, similar to how the batfamily is relevant because of their connection to Batman. But where Batman gets used as a punching bag to make the family look good Jeff gets shafted to make his daughters look good. And its egregious that it's done on his own show. He's become reactive to whatever his daughters are doing while never driving the story himself. I agree with Isabella that jeff is much better off without his kids and wife/exwife as well as being de-aged to a mid twenty something young black man. Much more potential to do new things with him than being the overbearing father and immasulated husband. Lets see a new relationship with Tatsu, a better version of an Outsider team (with more of the original members) and more of a wider presence in the greater DC Universe. But focus on Jeff himself, clearly something the show does not do. People complained that the Supergirl and Batwoman shows were not focusing on their stars/lead characters enough. The same applies to Black Lightning. I enjoyed this Outsiders book for what is was, the Ra's storyline dragged on too long and Batman was around a little too much but I liked Jeff and Tatsu here and love them together. Overall Isabella makes some good points.

[The Cool Thatguy]

A lot of fans don’t like Batman to be on the Justice league or having any Robins or Batgirls. So if Isabella doesn’t like the Outsiders or the daughters, then I imagine his preferences may not be uncommon or not understandable. But as you said, if the guy wants his character to be successful, particularly a b-lister like Jeff, I can’t see how it could be wise to be so picky on what bridges to keep or burn.

Tony Isa's dislike of the daughters was from how they were (poorly) introduced. You may find this hard to believe, but there was a time when canon wasn't rewritten every other week, and characters had long histories that were respected

Thunder was introduced out of nowhere, and we were told she was Jeff's daughter. But at the time, we'd seen a good deal of Jeff's personal life and his complete lack of children. More than that, I recall Tony Isa feeling that Jeff couldn't be a hero, and a responsible father.

Now, how popular Thunder and Lightning actually are, I dunno. More so these days, what with the show I imagine.

But Tony Isa's issues were of a more pragmatic concern, IMO. Judd Winick was a poor BL writer

[skyvolt2000]

Tony Isa's dislike of the daughters was from how they were (poorly) introduced. You may find this hard to believe, but there was a time when canon wasn't rewritten every other week, and characters had long histories that were respected

Thunder was introduced out of nowhere, and we were told she was Jeff's daughter. But at the time, we'd seen a good deal of Jeff's personal life and his complete lack of children. More than that, I recall Tony Isa feeling that Jeff couldn't be a hero, and a responsible father.

Now, how popular Thunder and Lightning actually are, I dunno. More so these days, what with the show I imagine.

But Tony Isa's issues were of a more pragmatic concern, IMO. Judd Winick was a poor BL writer

Okay now that makes sense.

Well he could still have kids who were just raised by their mother and lets say their powers kicked in at age 16-18.

Jefferson can still have his own stuff and maybe have the girls be on a Justice League approved/training team like the cartoon Young Justice. Put them in someone's hands so Jefferson does not have to worry about them.

[Aahz]

I actually don't mind Duke on Outsiders, I like the idea of him forgoing the usually junior league route most young heroes follow and going pro on one of the higher profile (in-universe) teams.

Doesn't really feel like they are doing high profile stuff or are like they would be on a team imo.

I can't really remember Jeff and Tatsu really mentoring Duke and Cass. And the character the story revolves around seems to be anyway Sophia.

[Aahz]

Now, how popular Thunder and Lightning actually are, I dunno. More so these days, what with the show I imagine.

Not sure what impact the show had, just speaking about comics I think Thunder was pretty well liked, but Lightning was iirc a relativity minor character in JSA, I don't think that she was that popular back than.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Doesn't really feel like they are doing high profile stuff or are like they would be on a team imo.

I can't really remember Jeff and Tatsu really mentoring Duke and Cass. And the character the story revolves around seems to be anyway Sophia.

Yeah, this still baffles and infuriates me. How can you have such a small cast, and still have no meaningful interaction?

[lemonpeace]

Doesn't really feel like they are doing high profile stuff or are like they would be on a team imo.

I can't really remember Jeff and Tatsu really mentoring Duke and Cass. And the character the story revolves around seems to be anyway Sophia.

I don't mean this run particularly, I mean the team itself. in-universe the Outsiders is a specialized team for heroes, not "sidekicks trying to do x" or a junior justice league. they are pro, typically league-level, hero characters serving a purpose. even the threat they are dealing with here (if it had the execution of the story been better) would be considered a job for a team of pro league-level heroes. The Outsiders is a higher profile team than a Teen Titans and I would rather Duke follow that path through to Leaguer status eventually (which would finally make good on how Snyder pitched the character) than to have him stuck in the junior leagues for decades doing dick all. because it's not like DC will let him lead those teams like the other bat-proteges, they'd just water his character down and make him follow Damian or Tim. look at Wallace, he's not necessarily used poorly in Teen Titans, but even in his best moment he's pretty much stuck acting like the Leader of the team while simultaneously being undervalued and ignored because he has to defer to Damian since he's the Robin, they have a higher standing in the DC hierarchy as it pertains to teens.

[Frontier]

Not sure what impact the show had, just speaking about comics I think Thunder was pretty well liked, but Lightning was iirc a relativity minor character in JSA, I don't think that she was that popular back than.

I think the DC Nation shorts helped Thunder and Lightning be more recognizable/popular.

[nj06]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned at all but I would like to have Grace Choi return. I always liked her character and I'm surprised she has yet to seen anywhere post-Flashpoint.

[Frontier]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned at all but I would like to have Grace Choi return. I always liked her character and I'm surprised she has yet to seen anywhere post-Flashpoint.

I kind of see Anissa and Grace as a package deal.