The Outsiders Appreciation/Discussion thread 2020

[Frontier]

It's hard for me to see Cass in a full-fledged romance.

[lemonpeace]

It's hard for me to see Cass in a full-fledged romance.

I gotta agree, the way she's typically written, she feels almost infantile at times; it just doesn't feel right to me yet. While I don't think Bryan Hill writes her as immature as some others might, it's too early to gauge if she's there yet. to be fair tho, I'm fairly certain she should be older than Duke and Hill is a big fan of her, so maybe he'll start fleshing her out as a woman more down the line. at that point, when she feels like a young woman with those kinds of desires and the maturity for a relationship, I'll be fine with her hooking up with whoever makes sense at that time.

[Frontier]

I gotta agree, the way she's typically written, she feels almost infantile at times; it just doesn't feel right to me yet. While I don't think Bryan Hill writes her as immature as some others might, it's too early to gauge if she's there yet. to be fair tho, I'm fairly certain she should be older than Duke and Hill is a big fan of her, so maybe he'll start fleshing her out as a woman more down the line. at that point, when she feels like a young woman with those kinds of desires and the maturity for a relationship, I'll be fine with her hooking up with whoever makes sense at that time.

That's the same problematic take on it that Tim had in Batman and Robin Eternal. She's not infantile, just severely emotionally stunted and scarred because of what she went through and how her abilities work. But mentally I don't think she's a child.

Of course I don't think it helps that it feels like she's still only half-way there to the kind of developed characters she was in Post-Crisis.

[lemonpeace]

That's the same problematic take on it that Tim had in Batman and Robin Eternal. She's not infantile, just severely emotionally stunted and scarred because of what she went through and how her abilities work. But mentally I don't think she's a child.

Of course I don't think it helps that it feels like she's still only half-way there to the kind of developed characters she was in Post-Crisis.

I understand her circumstances and trauma, I meant more in how writers tend to portray her. I feel that there are times where she feels more like a super kung fu toddler than a dangerous young woman who's been emotionally stunt. I agree, it's probably at least partially, if not largely, due to her not having the years of development she had pre-Flashpoint.

[Frontier]

I understand her circumstances and trauma, I meant more in how writers tend to portray her. I feel that there are times where she feels more like a super kung fu toddler than a dangerous young woman who's been emotionally stunt. I agree, it's probably at least partially, if not largely, due to her not having the years of development she had pre-Flashpoint.

I think Tynion handled it better, but I think we can agree it's been a bit of an issue since her re-introduction.

[lemonpeace]

I think Tynion handled it better, but I think we can agree it's been a bit of an issue since her re-introduction.

agreed, the chief issue with the re-introduction of Cassandra (and a lot of characters) was that there wasn't enough room for them to build back up the development they lost in the reboot; and I say this as someone who is largely on board with a lot of what the post-Flashpoint DC resulted in.

[SneakyLookingSort]

agreed, the chief issue with the re-introduction of Cassandra (and a lot of characters) was that there wasn't enough room for them to build back up the development they lost in the reboot; and I say this as someone who is largely on board with a lot of what the post-Flashpoint DC resulted in.

Then again Tynion wrote her for over 70 issues altogether and some of the other characters even more than that so it's not like he didn't have "time". Writers have done more with way less.

[lemonpeace]

Then again Tynion wrote her for over 70 issues altogether and some of the other characters even more than that so it's not like he didn't have "time". Writers have done more with way less.

true but I think it's tricky trying to build up make up for that much development for a singular character while juggling a team; I think Tynion moved the needle quite a bit tho.

[Frontier]

agreed, the chief issue with the re-introduction of Cassandra (and a lot of characters) was that there wasn't enough room for them to build back up the development they lost in the reboot; and I say this as someone who is largely on board with a lot of what the post-Flashpoint DC resulted in.

Then again Tynion wrote her for over 70 issues altogether and some of the other characters even more than that so it's not like he didn't have "time". Writers have done more with way less.

true but I think it's tricky trying to build up make up for that much development for a singular character while juggling a team; I think Tynion moved the needle quite a bit tho.

This was one of my main problems with Tynion's 'Tec run. He had to do very abridged version of some of the casts' major character developments from another continuity but, because of the pacing and everything else going on, they still felt barely half as developed as they did back then.

I guess if one positive thing comes out of 5G it will be restoring characters' history and tenure's fully.

[ohfellow]

Soy's and Gandini's work is fantastic - the book is just beautiful to page through. Meanwhile, Hill has a very spare but evocative way of writing - few words, but he makes them all count. While I came to the book to see what was up with Cassandra, I've been rewarded by a very well crafted monthly.

[lemonpeace]

Soy's and Gandini's work is fantastic - the book is just beautiful to page through. Meanwhile, Hill has a very spare but evocative way of writing - few words, but he makes them all count. While I came to the book to see what was up with Cassandra, I've been rewarded by a very well crafted monthly.

I think a double edge sword with Hill is his slow burn plotting. This first arc is 9 issues in, I think he's aiming for 12, which is pretty ambitious for an opening arc. he's gives some great cinematic moments, that Soy and Gandini bring to life stunningly, but he's taking his time establishing these characters and what it's all about. on one hand he's very mindful with his characterization and character interactions but on the other, he's is testing the patience of the reader by plotting out such a longform introduction before the audience has committed to the characters as a whole. Black Lightning and Katana are awesome together as a badass duo, and Duke and Cassandra are very touching together, but we haven't seen them work cohesively together as The Outsiders yet. We haven't even solidified who is actually on the team, it looked like Kaliber was the 5th member but he's reveal to be working with Ras al Ghul, and while we have Sofia as Babylon on the team, she was just an agent of Ras al Ghul and we are told not to trust her yet, so she's not a full Outsider yet. I believe Hill can pull it off satisfactory but he's putting a lot of faith in the audience to hold off and earn the Outsider pay off. it's a bold move but I can see how people complain about the pacing.

[Katana500]

I think in future they will interact more with Duke and Cass, but now "couples" need to actually start dating officially (Jefferson with Tatsu and Duke with Cass the ultimate waifu), it´ll be fun seeing Cass asking relationship´s advices to Tatsu or Duke to Jeff.

I'm not sure pairing Duke and Cass is the best idea. Do we really need a third Batgirl - Batboy pairing. With Dick and Babs, Tim and Steph and Cass and Duke, not only is it a bit redundant but its also makes it seem like Bruce is pairing up his sons and 'daughters' (maybe they are a bit more like nieces but still)

[TheManhunterfromMars]

I don´t remember if I asked you, but... you approve Black Lightning x Katana? About Duke and Cass, Steph meet Tim as Spoiler, and as Batgirl did nothing with Tim... it surprises me you don´t mention Jason in love with Barbara, but kinda you´re right it makes seem Bruce pairs them, but almost all are from different bloodlines, but still Cass and Duke has chemistry, better than pair Babs with Luke Fox as Rebirth it did. Kinda cliche pair them between them, but it´s the rules, I don´t make them.

[Katana500]

I don´t remember if I asked you, but... you approve Black Lightning x Katana? About Duke and Cass, Steph meet Tim as Spoiler, and as Batgirl did nothing with Tim... it surprises me you don´t mention Jason in love with Barbara, but kinda you´re right it makes seem Bruce pairs them, but almost all are from different bloodlines, but still Cass and Duke has chemistry, better than pair Babs with Luke Fox as Rebirth it did. Kinda cliche pair them between them, but it´s the rules, I don´t make them.

Black Lightning and Katana could certainly be interesting. I have a feeling that is the direction they are going to go down. Though Im not sure how well it would last since Katana is pretty devoted to her husband trapped in her sword. I think Jefferson is generally alot less intense and 'screwed up' if you will than Katana is - but currently in the story he seems to be losing his head a bit which I think can make an interesting dynamic. Long term though im not sure Katana would be able to maintain a relationship.

I'd not be against Cass and Duke being paired. I like both characters and I like their current interactions. So if they do end up together id be perfectly fine with it. I think Duke technically already has a girlfriend though and his marraige to Gotham Girl still needs to happen - which will likely be in Bat/Cat. So might not be the best time for him and cass to be paired.

[Customizer]

Seeing Black Lightning fully developed as a character with depth *and* being shown performing power feats has made me a fan. I had, at best, moderate interest in BL prior to this title (although i enjoyed Cold Dead Hands). The Outsiders has made me open my wallet solely because of the way Jefferson is being written and showcased. Everything else is a bonus.