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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    All I get from that is: there's no poll to support the claim.

    Interviews give you opinions, letters are handpicked, none of that tells you about how popular the character was.
    Okay, but the general historical consensus among the writers who got fan mail, among observers and fans who became writers (like Stern) and so on, is that she was unpopular. The evidence is mostly on the side of her being unpopular rather than popular. It would take substantive evidence to negate the broad consensus view formed by the judgments of Lee, Romita Sr., Conway, Roger Stern among others. Just because you don't have total objective evidence (and a poll would also fall short of that, btw since it depends on how much a sample should be considered "representative") doesn't mean you have no evidence. The available evidence indicates that she was unpopular in that period.

  2. #107
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Okay, but the general historical consensus among the writers who got fan mail, among observers and fans who became writers (like Stern) and so on, is that she was unpopular. The evidence is mostly on the side of her being unpopular rather than popular. It would take substantive evidence to negate the broad consensus view formed by the judgments of Lee, Romita Sr., Conway, Roger Stern among others. Just because you don't have total objective evidence (and a poll would also fall short of that, btw since it depends on how much a sample should be considered "representative") doesn't mean you have no evidence. The available evidence indicates that she was unpopular in that period.
    But it's no evidence at all, that's my point. I don't have any to the contrary, which is why you won't quote me saying she was popular. I would need it to do so, but to question an unsubstantiated claim? I don't need any.

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  4. #109
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    So I read the Gwen Stacy book and...wow, this stuff is retcon city.

    spoilers:

    We've already discussed Gwen's personality merge/shift, so how about everything else? First things first apparently Gwen's mom is dead. Bull. Wasn't she referenced/shown as alive and outliving both her husband and daughter? But fine, it was only for one issue so let's just assume she's dead. Second, apparently Gwen is now middle class? George Stacy, who's shown attending parties with the likes of Jameson and Roderick Kingsley, now states he can't retire despite allegations of corruption because his pension won't be enough to cover Gwen's college fees even with the scholarship. Again feels more like baiting to make her more relatable despite it blatantly contradicting a big part of her character and part of her tension with Peter.

    And of course there's Gwen suddenly showing Nancy Drew levels of intelligence that she was never even hinted to have. Hell she's the one who comes up with a plan to isolate one of three warring gang leaders and make a deal for him to turn information. She also goes super hard and says she's willing to fight for her dad's innocence after he gets framed for corruption despite the fact that it's most likely illegal. So now she's all for vigilantism, which would make her future hatred of Spider-Man super fucking weird unless they retcon that too even though, similar to her and Peter's social disparity, that's also a big part of her character.

    I dunno, this feels less like a backstory and more like yet another alternate universe Gwen who has nothing in common with 616. The only way it really tries to be canon is by showing Gwen interacting with Yuri Watanabe and Jean Dewolff and showing cameos like Peter being present at the library shortly before his uncle gets shot. But even then this just feels too different that, unless they find some way to explain how Gwen went from Nancy Drew to the Beauty Queen of ESU, considering this canon is about as likely as the Trouble miniseries where Aunt May is secretly Peter's biological mom.
    end of spoilers

  5. #110
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    So I read the Gwen Stacy book and...wow, this stuff is retcon city.

    spoilers:

    We've already discussed Gwen's personality merge/shift, so how about everything else? First things first apparently Gwen's mom is dead. Bull. Wasn't she referenced/shown as alive and outliving both her husband and daughter? But fine, it was only for one issue so let's just assume she's dead. Second, apparently Gwen is now middle class? George Stacy, who's shown attending parties with the likes of Jameson and Roderick Kingsley, now states he can't retire despite allegations of corruption because his pension won't be enough to cover Gwen's college fees even with the scholarship. Again feels more like baiting to make her more relatable despite it blatantly contradicting a big part of her character and part of her tension with Peter.

    And of course there's Gwen suddenly showing Nancy Drew levels of intelligence that she was never even hinted to have. Hell she's the one who comes up with a plan to isolate one of three warring gang leaders and make a deal for him to turn information. She also goes super hard and says she's willing to fight for her dad's innocence after he gets framed for corruption despite the fact that it's most likely illegal. So now she's all for vigilantism, which would make her future hatred of Spider-Man super fucking weird unless they retcon that too even though, similar to her and Peter's social disparity, that's also a big part of her character.

    I dunno, this feels less like a backstory and more like yet another alternate universe Gwen who has nothing in common with 616. The only way it really tries to be canon is by showing Gwen interacting with Yuri Watanabe and Jean Dewolff and showing cameos like Peter being present at the library shortly before his uncle gets shot. But even then this just feels too different that, unless they find some way to explain how Gwen went from Nancy Drew to the Beauty Queen of ESU, considering this canon is about as likely as the Trouble miniseries where Aunt May is secretly Peter's biological mom.
    end of spoilers
    Yeah, it's a really bad story.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    So I read the Gwen Stacy book and...wow, this stuff is retcon city.

    spoilers:

    We've already discussed Gwen's personality merge/shift, so how about everything else? First things first apparently Gwen's mom is dead. Bull. Wasn't she referenced/shown as alive and outliving both her husband and daughter? But fine, it was only for one issue so let's just assume she's dead. Second, apparently Gwen is now middle class? George Stacy, who's shown attending parties with the likes of Jameson and Roderick Kingsley, now states he can't retire despite allegations of corruption because his pension won't be enough to cover Gwen's college fees even with the scholarship. Again feels more like baiting to make her more relatable despite it blatantly contradicting a big part of her character and part of her tension with Peter.

    And of course there's Gwen suddenly showing Nancy Drew levels of intelligence that she was never even hinted to have. Hell she's the one who comes up with a plan to isolate one of three warring gang leaders and make a deal for him to turn information. She also goes super hard and says she's willing to fight for her dad's innocence after he gets framed for corruption despite the fact that it's most likely illegal. So now she's all for vigilantism, which would make her future hatred of Spider-Man super fucking weird unless they retcon that too even though, similar to her and Peter's social disparity, that's also a big part of her character.

    I dunno, this feels less like a backstory and more like yet another alternate universe Gwen who has nothing in common with 616. The only way it really tries to be canon is by showing Gwen interacting with Yuri Watanabe and Jean Dewolff and showing cameos like Peter being present at the library shortly before his uncle gets shot. But even then this just feels too different that, unless they find some way to explain how Gwen went from Nancy Drew to the Beauty Queen of ESU, considering this canon is about as likely as the Trouble miniseries where Aunt May is secretly Peter's biological mom.
    end of spoilers
    Saint Gwen strikes again, but this time in the form of continuity errors and retcons. I was considering a purchase, but I won't be picking this up. Thanks for the heads up.

  7. #112
    Amazing Member Nerdman3000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    So I read the Gwen Stacy book and...wow, this stuff is retcon city.

    spoilers:

    We've already discussed Gwen's personality merge/shift, so how about everything else? First things first apparently Gwen's mom is dead. Bull. Wasn't she referenced/shown as alive and outliving both her husband and daughter? But fine, it was only for one issue so let's just assume she's dead. Second, apparently Gwen is now middle class? George Stacy, who's shown attending parties with the likes of Jameson and Roderick Kingsley, now states he can't retire despite allegations of corruption because his pension won't be enough to cover Gwen's college fees even with the scholarship. Again feels more like baiting to make her more relatable despite it blatantly contradicting a big part of her character and part of her tension with Peter.

    And of course there's Gwen suddenly showing Nancy Drew levels of intelligence that she was never even hinted to have. Hell she's the one who comes up with a plan to isolate one of three warring gang leaders and make a deal for him to turn information. She also goes super hard and says she's willing to fight for her dad's innocence after he gets framed for corruption despite the fact that it's most likely illegal. So now she's all for vigilantism, which would make her future hatred of Spider-Man super fucking weird unless they retcon that too even though, similar to her and Peter's social disparity, that's also a big part of her character.

    I dunno, this feels less like a backstory and more like yet another alternate universe Gwen who has nothing in common with 616. The only way it really tries to be canon is by showing Gwen interacting with Yuri Watanabe and Jean Dewolff and showing cameos like Peter being present at the library shortly before his uncle gets shot. But even then this just feels too different that, unless they find some way to explain how Gwen went from Nancy Drew to the Beauty Queen of ESU, considering this canon is about as likely as the Trouble miniseries where Aunt May is secretly Peter's biological mom.
    end of spoilers
    Well at least it’s consistent about one unwritten rule about Gwen: Any story about or starring Gwen Stacy written after her death will never be consistent to how her character was written before her death.

    On a side note, I disagree somewhat that Captain George Stacy rubbing shoulders with Jameson and Rodrick Kingsley is necessarily indicative that he’s not potentially middle class. In the 60’s and early 70’s (basically pre-Watergate), authority figures, such as police, were often held to a higher standard and great deal of trust than they are today. The idea of a police captain, as well as police commissioner’s for that matter, at that point in time getting invited to parties hosted by rich people during that period wasn’t, from what I can tell, unheard of. In fact, nowadays, you sometimes still get police commissioner’s invited to these sort of things, though not necessarily police captains anymore.

    Now does that mean the Stacy’s are middle class? No. But just because George knows and perhaps hangs out with Jameson and Kingsley doesn’t mean he can’t be.
    Last edited by Nerdman3000; 02-12-2020 at 11:08 AM.

  8. #113
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdman3000 View Post
    Well at least it’s consistent about one unwritten rule about Gwen: Any story about or starring Gwen Stacy written after her death will never be consistent to how her character was written before her death.

    On a side note, I disagree somewhat that Captain George Stacy rubbing shoulders with Jameson and Rodrick Kingsley is necessarily indicative that he’s not potentially middle class. In the 60’s and early 70’s (basically pre-Watergate), authority figures, such as police, were often held to a higher standard and great deal of trust than they are today. The idea of a police captain, as well as police commissioner’s for that matter, at that point in time getting invited to parties hosted by rich people during that period wasn’t, from what I can tell, unheard of. In fact, nowadays, you sometimes still get police commissioner’s invited to these sort of things, though not necessarily police captains anymore.

    Now does that mean the Stacy’s are middle class? No. But just because George knows and perhaps hangs out with Jameson and Kingsley doesn’t mean he can’t be.
    The Stacy's not being middle class would also explain a lot about Gwen's initial characterization. She came off more like a rich girl then a girl next door type.

    Plus there's a contrast with MJ since she's decidedly middle class but literally acts above her station.

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    I knew this was gonna be a dumpster fire since the announcement. Another retroactive story to something/someone I like by Gage that does nothing but destroy it. First his JLU book now this.
    __________
    Initiating Sins Past Protocol:

    ▰▰▰▰▱▱▱▱▱▱▱▱▱ 33% Wiping this terrible issue from my mind

    ▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▱▱▱▱▱ 63% Making the whole thing not canon

    ▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰▰ 100% Moving on

    lmao
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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The Stacy's not being middle class would also explain a lot about Gwen's initial characterization. She came off more like a rich girl then a girl next door type.

    Plus there's a contrast with MJ since she's decidedly middle class but literally acts above her station.
    Yep. From what I gather Gwen was never the girl next door - that was MJ. Gwen was upper class, the Beauty Queen of ESU and a socialite on top of that. Nothing about her screamed middle class student who needed a scholarship.

    Now granted maybe they became rich when George became Captain (or is he already one?), but given the timeline that’s in less than three years. So in less than 3 years George Stacy got rich, got connections and moved up to upper society when just here he can barely afford to send Gwen to college even with scholarship? Do police captains make mad bank or something? Even the ASM movies explained the penthouse apartment was bought by Helen Stacy since she’s a successful lawyer.

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Maybe him busting someone big/etc in this book leads to the connections/money ?

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Gwen Stacy in the original comics was very rich. She had relatives who lived in England and could travel there in a flash without telling anyone. My understanding was that George was the younger kid of a very rich family who had a sense of public service and didn't want to go into the family business. So the Stacys were very wealthy.

    In the ASM movies, Marc Webb likewise made the Stacys rich to emphasize the class angle. His explanation was that George Stacy's wife became a highly paid big time Manhattan lawyer.

    So this is a total retcon. Mary Jane was actually working class. She pulled herself up with with the bootstraps and was working for a living to support herself to college.

    So yeah...this is another attempt to undermine the actual stories written and told.

  13. #118
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I feel like Gwen Stacy's a problematic character to retroactively address since her characterization was relatively flat during the Lee/Romita years and the stuff that sticks out doesn't reflect well on her sainted image.

    This is NOT a judgment on a mini-series I haven't read, by the way. I have no thoughts whatsoever on that.

    I do wonder, would Marvel ever address the more problematic aspects of her characterization directly? Like, would we ever see a series that addresses the Bullitt storyline? I think it could be done and maybe fill in some gaps and have Gwen come to a realization of how wrong she was. But maybe Marvel would just assume pass over a story that many people aren't familiar with anyway.

  14. #119
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eratas123 View Post
    So I read the Gwen Stacy book and...wow, this stuff is retcon city.

    spoilers:

    We've already discussed Gwen's personality merge/shift, so how about everything else? First things first apparently Gwen's mom is dead. Bull. Wasn't she referenced/shown as alive and outliving both her husband and daughter? But fine, it was only for one issue so let's just assume she's dead. Second, apparently Gwen is now middle class? George Stacy, who's shown attending parties with the likes of Jameson and Roderick Kingsley, now states he can't retire despite allegations of corruption because his pension won't be enough to cover Gwen's college fees even with the scholarship. Again feels more like baiting to make her more relatable despite it blatantly contradicting a big part of her character and part of her tension with Peter.

    And of course there's Gwen suddenly showing Nancy Drew levels of intelligence that she was never even hinted to have. Hell she's the one who comes up with a plan to isolate one of three warring gang leaders and make a deal for him to turn information. She also goes super hard and says she's willing to fight for her dad's innocence after he gets framed for corruption despite the fact that it's most likely illegal. So now she's all for vigilantism, which would make her future hatred of Spider-Man super fucking weird unless they retcon that too even though, similar to her and Peter's social disparity, that's also a big part of her character.

    I dunno, this feels less like a backstory and more like yet another alternate universe Gwen who has nothing in common with 616. The only way it really tries to be canon is by showing Gwen interacting with Yuri Watanabe and Jean Dewolff and showing cameos like Peter being present at the library shortly before his uncle gets shot. But even then this just feels too different that, unless they find some way to explain how Gwen went from Nancy Drew to the Beauty Queen of ESU, considering this canon is about as likely as the Trouble miniseries where Aunt May is secretly Peter's biological mom.
    end of spoilers
    That's not all. spoilers:
    We see Ben's murder on the TV news, so it should be set on the same day as Amazing Fantasy #15. So how the heck can Green Goblin already exist?
    end of spoilers
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  15. #120
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    That's not all. spoilers:
    We see Ben's murder on the TV news, so it should be set on the same day as Amazing Fantasy #15. So how the heck can Green Goblin already exist?
    end of spoilers
    I found that silly but continuity-wise, Green Goblin had nothing to do with Peter's origin and life. He would have become Goblin with and without Spider-Man. So that's neither here nor there. There was never a real time-line established as to when the different backstories of villains aligned with Peter's.

    I just think that it's bizarre and weird that Ben's death would make it TV news. I think it would have been a local event around Queens but nothing beyond that.

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