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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm not necesarilly doubting you, but I've never really seen it come up as much. But those people probably haven't read or seen a lot with Dinah in it.

    It's a very rare thing to see with her is what you're getting at .
    Um...yeah, it doesn't happen often.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    I would love to see Canary get another solo series. While I enjoyed her DCYou run, it just didnt feel like a classic Canary run. I would love to see DC pour into her what they keep pouring into Catwoman, Supergirl, Batgirl...but who...I would kill to have Joelle Jones drawing it though.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    I think it's just lack of knowledge, outside of Wonder Woman, Black Canary is probably DC's most iconic heroine, but despite that she's never really had her own long running series outside of Birds of Prey.

    They might also be taking biological limitations into account as well when it comes to fighting. As a male, Batman's muscle mass, reaction time, and ability to absorb a hit better, gives him an advantage in striking and blocking, so he would most likely win when you take that into account. As a huge Black Canary fan that was a bit of a bubble buster for me, but realistically speaking, you don't see men fighting women in boxing and UFC primarily because of physiological differences.
    Not really..

    Black Canary is in the Top10, but not more...

    I would rather say:

    1. Wonder Woman
    2. Supergirl/Zatanna
    4. Batgirl
    5. Catwoman
    6. Black Canary

    Supergirl has her own show and she has the connection to Superman and Power Girl is also very popular
    Batgirl is popular thanks to "Killing Joke" and her connection to Batman
    Zatanna is more popular than Black Canary

    But Black Canary is actually in a very good position, since I think there are other female heroes who could become more popular than her, but arent used as much (Vixen) or not aged up (Cassandra Sandsmark)...ToT Cassie Sandsmark would be a big rival for Black Canary..

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Not really..

    Black Canary is in the Top10, but not more...

    I would rather say:

    1. Wonder Woman
    2. Supergirl/Zatanna
    4. Batgirl
    5. Catwoman
    6. Black Canary

    Supergirl has her own show and she has the connection to Superman and Power Girl is also very popular
    Batgirl is popular thanks to "Killing Joke" and her connection to Batman
    Zatanna is more popular than Black Canary

    But Black Canary is actually in a very good position, since I think there are other female heroes who could become more popular than her, but arent used as much (Vixen) or not aged up (Cassandra Sandsmark)...ToT Cassie Sandsmark would be a big rival for Black Canary..
    It depends on how you judge it.

    Wonder Woman IS just the most iconic.

    Supergirl and Batgirl benefit from being identifiable because of male counterparts, you're right. Catwoman more well known because of her connection to Batman.
    I have no idea why you would think Zatanna is more well known, popular or iconic than Black Canary. There have been more live action and animated versions of Canary, more comics starring the character and more merchandise.

    There was a recent poll thread on here asking for your favorite characters and they were each assigned points depending on their placement. Certainly not a conclusive poll, but it could give an indication. As far as female characters, Wonder Woman was appropriately the leader in terms of votes and points, Black Canary was a relatively close second in votes and points and all the other notable female characters were fairly far behind them.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromberg View Post
    It depends on how you judge it.

    Wonder Woman IS just the most iconic.

    Supergirl and Batgirl benefit from being identifiable because of male counterparts, you're right. Catwoman more well known because of her connection to Batman.
    I have no idea why you would think Zatanna is more well known, popular or iconic than Black Canary. There have been more live action and animated versions of Canary, more comics starring the character and more merchandise.

    There was a recent poll thread on here asking for your favorite characters and they were each assigned points depending on their placement. Certainly not a conclusive poll, but it could give an indication. As far as female characters, Wonder Woman was appropriately the leader in terms of votes and points, Black Canary was a relatively close second in votes and points and all the other notable female characters were fairly far behind them.
    Catwoman is connected to Batman ok, but she is also famous as character herself...There have been a LARGE number of Interpretation of her in Batman Films and Series like Gotham and the old Batman Series with Adam West and she also had a solo-film and she will appear in the new Batman Film.

    I forgot Harley who is also an icon now....she became more famous now trough Margot Robbie....

    For long time there were 4 iconic ones: Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Black Canary and Zatanna..They appeared early and were the most famous females in DC.
    I personally thought that Zatanna is even more iconic and popular than Black Canary...

    Is logical that there were more live presences of Black Canary, since she is part of Green Arrow who got a long lasting TV Series and if I remember right her sister or so is also part of the "Legends of Tomorrow". Its more easy to show her than Zatanna, since magic is difficult to show...

    Are there more comics showing Black Canary than Zatanna? When did Black Canary appear? (I didnt understand it really, since there are 2 of them)

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Catwoman is connected to Batman ok, but she is also famous as character herself...There have been a LARGE number of Interpretation of her in Batman Films and Series like Gotham and the old Batman Series with Adam West and she also had a solo-film and she will appear in the new Batman Film.

    I forgot Harley who is also an icon now....she became more famous now trough Margot Robbie....

    For long time there were 4 iconic ones: Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Black Canary and Zatanna..They appeared early and were the most famous females in DC.
    I personally thought that Zatanna is even more iconic and popular than Black Canary...

    Is logical that there were more live presences of Black Canary, since she is part of Green Arrow who got a long lasting TV Series and if I remember right her sister or so is also part of the "Legends of Tomorrow". Its more easy to show her than Zatanna, since magic is difficult to show...

    Are there more comics showing Black Canary than Zatanna? When did Black Canary appear? (I didnt understand it really, since there are 2 of them)
    But everything with Catwoman, other than her solo movie has been because of Batman and that solo movie was a critical and financial flop. Yes Catwoman is famous, more famous than Black Canary but it is largely dependent on her connection to Batman.

    Black Canary debuted in 1947, Zatanna in 1964. I can't say for sure that Dinah had appeared in more comics than Zatanna without some research but my guess would be that with an almost 20 year head start, an almost 20 year run in the JLA when she first replaced Wonder Woman along with the BoP titles, solo titles, Green Arrow titles and other JL runs she most likely has.

  7. #67
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    Black Canary has either been a main head liner of her own comic, a major love interest in Green Arrow or primary member of the Birds of Prey. Zatanna is usually either a guest star or a member of a less important team when she isn't a part of the Justice League which isn't very often.

  8. #68
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    There's no continuity I've read where Selina can beat Dinah in a one-on-one. That list is very short. Just on martial arts ability alone, the only people I really put above Dinah are Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

    Diana is a spot or two below Dinah, which is itself in no way a disservice to anyone. Dinah is just that good.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Dinah definitely belongs among the upper ranks of "best martial artists" lists. Not at the very top, that's where Shiva and Cass belong, but definitely in the top 5-10, at a minimum.

    Diana, I think, is probably on that list as well, but her fighting style isn't as dedicated to unarmed combat, she uses weapons (including the lasso) a lot of the time. I'd think that, just in terms of overall combat prowess, even before we add her powers in, Diana's got to be one of the most dangerous fighters around. But in terms of just martial arts, yeah I think Dinah surpasses her.

    Let Diana use a weapon however, and she ranks above Dinah.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #70
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    According to Comic Vine, as of 2019, Black Canary had appeared in comics 2613 times...Zatanna 1300 times.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromberg View Post

    Black Canary debuted in 1947, Zatanna in 1964. I can't say for sure that Dinah had appeared in more comics than Zatanna without some research but my guess would be that with an almost 20 year head start, an almost 20 year run in the JLA when she first replaced Wonder Woman along with the BoP titles, solo titles, Green Arrow titles and other JL runs she most likely has.
    Easily!! Zee never really had an ongoing feature, and though JLA gave her additional exposure, she was rarely part of the team long-term. She's really been much more present these days thanks to her appearances in JLDark.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Catwoman is connected to Batman ok, but she is also famous as character herself...There have been a LARGE number of Interpretation of her in Batman Films and Series like Gotham and the old Batman Series with Adam West and she also had a solo-film and she will appear in the new Batman Film.

    I forgot Harley who is also an icon now....she became more famous now trough Margot Robbie....

    For long time there were 4 iconic ones: Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Black Canary and Zatanna..They appeared early and were the most famous females in DC.
    I personally thought that Zatanna is even more iconic and popular than Black Canary...

    Is logical that there were more live presences of Black Canary, since she is part of Green Arrow who got a long lasting TV Series and if I remember right her sister or so is also part of the "Legends of Tomorrow". Its more easy to show her than Zatanna, since magic is difficult to show...

    Are there more comics showing Black Canary than Zatanna? When did Black Canary appear? (I didnt understand it really, since there are 2 of them)
    According to GCD:

    Black Canary - 4776 appearances, of which include:

    Justice League of America (1156)
    Birds of Prey (498)
    Green Arrow (487)
    Black Canary (271)
    Justice Society of America (267)
    Justice League (155)
    Batman (116)
    Green Lantern (107)
    Green Arrow and Black Canary (107)
    DC Nation (92)

    Zatanna - 2260 appearances, of which include:

    Justice League of America (434)
    Zatanna (292)
    Justice League Dark (261)
    Justice League (118)
    Batman (87)
    Channel 52 (58)
    Superman (55)
    Wonder Woman (48)
    JLA (40)
    DC Comics Bombshells (40)

  13. #73
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Dinah definitely belongs among the upper ranks of "best martial artists" lists. Not at the very top, that's where Shiva and Cass belong, but definitely in the top 5-10, at a minimum.

    Diana, I think, is probably on that list as well, but her fighting style isn't as dedicated to unarmed combat, she uses weapons (including the lasso) a lot of the time. I'd think that, just in terms of overall combat prowess, even before we add her powers in, Diana's got to be one of the most dangerous fighters around. But in terms of just martial arts, yeah I think Dinah surpasses her.

    Let Diana use a weapon however, and she ranks above Dinah.
    I can dig on that. Diana would be something of a resident weapon master given her martial training, at least among the Justice League. Still, never underestimate that canary cry.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Are there more comics showing Black Canary than Zatanna? When did Black Canary appear? (I didnt understand it really, since there are 2 of them)
    I still don't like Canary as Canary's daughter.

    Black Canary - 4776 appearances... Zatanna - 2260 appearances
    I definitely prefer BC. Well, some versions (there are pretty much no characters I love in all eras/versions). Zatanna is fine, but never grabbed me.

    However, Masterff, Black Canary (Dinah Drake) originally appeared in 1947. She appeared until the early 1950s when she disappeared along with many, many other Golden Age heroes. Reappeared in the 1960s on Earth 2 before her husband (Larry Lance) was killed off and she crossed universes to start a new life and join the JLA in 1969. She appeared a lot in the Bronze age. She was retconned to the original Black Canary's daughter in the 1980s in a story I have serious issues with (and feel was only a stopgap for what it was trying to fix). After COIE, she remained the daughter of the original (was Dinah Laurel Lance to differentiate from Dinah Drake Lance) until the 2011 reboot, when she once again became Dinah Drake, with a supposedly dead husband now named Kurt Lance. Not sure what's going on now, to be honest, since continuity in so many books see snarled.

    Zatanna was introduced in the 1960s, but didn't get much use until the early 1970s, I think. Definitely both were regulars in the 1970s.

    For the record, I wouldn't call even Dinah iconic, despite her many more appearances. Iconic to me means people who aren't comic fans recognize a character. You can make a joke about Lex Luthor or Batman and most people you talk to (in the US) will know who you are talking about. Put the S-shield on a t-shirt and people know who it means (even if it's really Kara or Kon or someone else's). Iconic is very, very hard to achieve and takes other media to accomplish. Maybe this movie will make it happen, but I doubt it. I'm not sure if it's really possible for a character to achieve in the world with more fragmented media and options and such we have today. Popular, sure. But iconic means staying power in the mainstream consciousness for years. Or at least being parodyied so much that the knockoffs are recognized even by people who have never seen the source material (American Gothic painting, the Thinker sculpture, etc.).

  15. #75
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I can dig on that. Diana would be something of a resident weapon master given her martial training, at least among the Justice League. Still, never underestimate that canary cry.
    Oh, definitely not! I'm just talking combat ability here.

    Dinah's powers add a whole different level to her capability. I actually think her powers, if written smart, give her solid odds against people she has no right to be challenging. Under the right circumstances I can see her having a shot against most of the Big 7. For someone who's only a low, maybe mid-tier power rank, that's gods damn impressive.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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