Black Canary Appreciation Thread 2020

[LordAllMIghty]

There's no continuity I've read where Selina can beat Dinah in a one-on-one. That list is very short. Just on martial arts ability alone, the only people I really put above Dinah are Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Diana is a spot or two below Dinah, which is itself in no way a disservice to anyone. Dinah is just that good.

I don't know if I would go that far. I like Dinah and I put her in the Top 10 but I feel like Diana is head or two above her.

[The no face guy]

Black Canary and Zatanna are my two favourite heroines of all time, but like the stats state above Canary has been featured in more issues and has a longer history.

I always considered Black Canary DC's biggest heroine after Wonder Woman, but I've never taken Batgirl, or Supergirl into account, who could have more appearances?

[Stromberg]

It's also a question of treatment by the company. Starting with her joining the JLA in 69 through the 70's and early 80's run, it was clear that DC was pushing Black Canary as the second woman of DC. In all advertising the women used we're Wonder Woman and Black Canary and then to a lesser extent, Supergirl and Batgirl.
DC has drastically backed away from this since Crisis on Infinite Earth's. They do things like make BC, instead of WW, a founder of the JLA and allow writers like Dixon and Simone to build her up only to systematically tear her down and Nerf her.

[Electricmastro]

I still don't like Canary as Canary's daughter.

I definitely prefer BC. Well, some versions (there are pretty much no characters I love in all eras/versions). Zatanna is fine, but never grabbed me.

However, Masterff, Black Canary (Dinah Drake) originally appeared in 1947. She appeared until the early 1950s when she disappeared along with many, many other Golden Age heroes. Reappeared in the 1960s on Earth 2 before her husband (Larry Lance) was killed off and she crossed universes to start a new life and join the JLA in 1969. She appeared a lot in the Bronze age. She was retconned to the original Black Canary's daughter in the 1980s in a story I have serious issues with (and feel was only a stopgap for what it was trying to fix). After COIE, she remained the daughter of the original (was Dinah Laurel Lance to differentiate from Dinah Drake Lance) until the 2011 reboot, when she once again became Dinah Drake, with a supposedly dead husband now named Kurt Lance. Not sure what's going on now, to be honest, since continuity in so many books see snarled.

Zatanna was introduced in the 1960s, but didn't get much use until the early 1970s, I think. Definitely both were regulars in the 1970s.

For the record, I wouldn't call even Dinah iconic, despite her many more appearances. Iconic to me means people who aren't comic fans recognize a character. You can make a joke about Lex Luthor or Batman and most people you talk to (in the US) will know who you are talking about. Put the S-shield on a t-shirt and people know who it means (even if it's really Kara or Kon or someone else's). Iconic is very, very hard to achieve and takes other media to accomplish. Maybe this movie will make it happen, but I doubt it. I'm not sure if it's really possible for a character to achieve in the world with more fragmented media and options and such we have today. Popular, sure. But iconic means staying power in the mainstream consciousness for years. Or at least being parodyied so much that the knockoffs are recognized even by people who have never seen the source material (American Gothic painting, the Thinker sculpture, etc.).

Also an interesting fact is that co-creator Carmine Infantino drew Black Canary for Flash Comics #104 (February, 1949) and didn’t draw her for a comic book again until The Flash #129 (June, 1962):

[Masterff]

Dinah definitely belongs among the upper ranks of "best martial artists" lists. Not at the very top, that's where Shiva and Cass belong, but definitely in the top 5-10, at a minimum.

Diana, I think, is probably on that list as well, but her fighting style isn't as dedicated to unarmed combat, she uses weapons (including the lasso) a lot of the time. I'd think that, just in terms of overall combat prowess, even before we add her powers in, Diana's got to be one of the most dangerous fighters around. But in terms of just martial arts, yeah I think Dinah surpasses her.

Let Diana use a weapon however, and she ranks above Dinah.

There's no continuity I've read where Selina can beat Dinah in a one-on-one. That list is very short. Just on martial arts ability alone, the only people I really put above Dinah are Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Diana is a spot or two below Dinah, which is itself in no way a disservice to anyone. Dinah is just that good.

Not really, there are also others:

-KARATE KID!!!
-BRONZE TIGER!!!
-BATMAN
-probably also Deathstroke and his daughter Rose (thanks to their abilities).

Karate Kid is usually considered as the best DC Martial Artist EVER!!!

I still don't like Canary as Canary's daughter.

I definitely prefer BC. Well, some versions (there are pretty much no characters I love in all eras/versions). Zatanna is fine, but never grabbed me.

However, Masterff, Black Canary (Dinah Drake) originally appeared in 1947. She appeared until the early 1950s when she disappeared along with many, many other Golden Age heroes. Reappeared in the 1960s on Earth 2 before her husband (Larry Lance) was killed off and she crossed universes to start a new life and join the JLA in 1969. She appeared a lot in the Bronze age. She was retconned to the original Black Canary's daughter in the 1980s in a story I have serious issues with (and feel was only a stopgap for what it was trying to fix). After COIE, she remained the daughter of the original (was Dinah Laurel Lance to differentiate from Dinah Drake Lance) until the 2011 reboot, when she once again became Dinah Drake, with a supposedly dead husband now named Kurt Lance. Not sure what's going on now, to be honest, since continuity in so many books see snarled.

Zatanna was introduced in the 1960s, but didn't get much use until the early 1970s, I think. Definitely both were regulars in the 1970s.

For the record, I wouldn't call even Dinah iconic, despite her many more appearances. Iconic to me means people who aren't comic fans recognize a character. You can make a joke about Lex Luthor or Batman and most people you talk to (in the US) will know who you are talking about. Put the S-shield on a t-shirt and people know who it means (even if it's really Kara or Kon or someone else's). Iconic is very, very hard to achieve and takes other media to accomplish. Maybe this movie will make it happen, but I doubt it. I'm not sure if it's really possible for a character to achieve in the world with more fragmented media and options and such we have today. Popular, sure. But iconic means staying power in the mainstream consciousness for years. Or at least being parodyied so much that the knockoffs are recognized even by people who have never seen the source material (American Gothic painting, the Thinker sculpture, etc.).

ICONIC changes over time...

Right now thanks to Margot Robbie HARLEY QUINN would be likely the Nr.1 maybe even more than Wonder Woman
Catwoman is connected to Batman, but she is also iconic and I think most of the people would recognize her

Black Canary, Wonder Woman and Zatanna are very popular to Comic Readers and the three are usually shown in books etc. when they talk about female Superheroes

[Agent Z]

Karate Kid is usually considered as the best DC Martial Artist EVER!!!

Since when?

[Masterff]

Since when?

Actually in many lists he is ranked as Nr.1 and he was able to fight Superboy (Clark) and Supergirl without having superpowers..
He (or Lady Shiva, since she might be more popular) are the classic Nr.1 answers.

[Agent Z]

Edited post.

[Tzigone]

ICONIC changes over time...

Right now thanks to Margot Robbie HARLEY QUINN would be likely the Nr.1 maybe even more than Wonder Woman

I don't agree. Harley is very popular right now, but that's not iconic to me. It has to last and it needs to be part of broader culture (in this case pop culture), and she hasn't done that yet, IMO. As I said, a very high bar.

Catwoman is connected to Batman, but she is also iconic and I think most of the people would recognize her

I'd agree, though I also agree it comes from Batman. For instance, I heard Goldie O'Gilt described as "Scrooge McDuck's Catwoman" - almost anyone (in the US) hearing that knows what it means even if they've never read or watched a single thing with Batman or Catwoman.

There's no continuity I've read where Selina can beat Dinah in a one-on-one.

Well, they all vary by plot and era. Selina more than most (see recent kerfuffle over whether she should be able to beat Talia). For me, Selina should be a good fighter, but not a great one. That's just not her key area of strength to me. I feel similarly about Ollie. Dinah has consistently been a fighter,at least. Diana should be one of the best. Probably better than Dinah or Bruce*. Definitely better than Clark (who, for much of his life, never had to put in any effort). She trained among warriors her entire life and she beat all the other Amazons in competition. The one caveat is that most historically didn't focus on unarmed combat. From what I know, anyway (mostly from reddit's askHistorians), even in the East, martial arts were for athletic displays for the most part. Actual combat had weapons - they make you more likely to win. But, despite practicality, when watching a movie, fight scenes just tend to be so much more visually interesting than shootout scenes, so I'm okay with having them in my fictions.

*Obviously, I'm talking about skill only, since strength and speed would heavily tip the scales.

[Stromberg]

Not really, there are also others:

-KARATE KID!!!
-BRONZE TIGER!!!
-BATMAN
-probably also Deathstroke and his daughter Rose (thanks to their abilities).

Karate Kid is usually considered as the best DC Martial Artist EVER!!!



ICONIC changes over time...

Right now thanks to Margot Robbie HARLEY QUINN would be likely the Nr.1 maybe even more than Wonder Woman
Catwoman is connected to Batman, but she is also iconic and I think most of the people would recognize her

Black Canary, Wonder Woman and Zatanna are very popular to Comic Readers and the three are usually shown in books etc. when they talk about female Superheroes

Well, the Batman thing has been addressed, it's actually what started the discussion of Black Canary's ranking as a martial artist. It's been pretty firmly established that she is at least as good as him, potentially better. Deathstroke is potentially better but it's also possible that he's an excellent fighter that has the ability to outthink most anybody.

I don't know if you're aware of this but Wonder Woman has appeared outside the comics as well. She had a little movie a couple of years ago. It did alright. And she has another one coming out soon. A couple people might go see it as well.

Black Canary has been seen in live action in some popular stuff like Smallville, Arrow and recently a movie where she was well received. I don't think she's as well known as Catwoman (which doesn't negate her from being DC's number 2 woman...THERE IS something to be said for respect of impact, history, popularity, longevity and a mix of all of the above) but she isn't just known by comic readers.

[Robanker]

Not really, there are also others:

-KARATE KID!!!
-BRONZE TIGER!!!
-BATMAN
-probably also Deathstroke and his daughter Rose (thanks to their abilities).

Karate Kid is usually considered as the best DC Martial Artist EVER!!!



ICONIC changes over time...

Right now thanks to Margot Robbie HARLEY QUINN would be likely the Nr.1 maybe even more than Wonder Woman
Catwoman is connected to Batman, but she is also iconic and I think most of the people would recognize her

Black Canary, Wonder Woman and Zatanna are very popular to Comic Readers and the three are usually shown in books etc. when they talk about female Superheroes

Dinah can and should beat Bruce and Bronze Tiger. I'll give you Val, but I was counting her contemporaries and he isn't one. The Wilsons are also among those you will find under Dinah's heel. She's better than them.

I also hate him for the same reason Giffen does. Super karate is stupid.

[Stromberg]

Dinah can and should beat Bruce and Bronze Tiger. I'll give you Val, but I was counting her contemporaries and he isn't one. The Wilsons are also among those you will find under Dinah's heel. She's better than them.

I also hate him for the same reason Giffen does. Super karate is stupid.

Well she should certainly be able to take Rose. She did fight Deathstroke to a stalemate but she had help and it cost her a broken arm. Still, it's better than most people fare against him.

[kjn]

Diana should be one of the best. Probably better than Dinah or Bruce*. Definitely better than Clark (who, for much of his life, never had to put in any effort). She trained among warriors her entire life and she beat all the other Amazons in competition. The one caveat is that most historically didn't focus on unarmed combat. From what I know, anyway (mostly from reddit's askHistorians), even in the East, martial arts were for athletic displays for the most part. Actual combat had weapons - they make you more likely to win. But, despite practicality, when watching a movie, fight scenes just tend to be so much more visually interesting than shootout scenes, so I'm okay with having them in my fictions.

Unarmed combat was still very important in ancient cultures—or indeed in all martial cultures. The Greeks had pankration as an Olympic sport, but wrestling and grappling was still very important in actual combat and in training. Both for general fitness, movement in combat, and aggressiveness, but also because its use in really close quarters. Especially armoured combat (which the Greeks were one of the pioneers in) could place a lot of emphasis on grappling, since the most reliable way to get past armour was really close in against an immobilised enemy. The Viking era sagas and myths also describe wrestling, both as sports and in combat.

We had a discussion over in the Wonder Woman forum about the Amazon unarmed martial arts, and I think we leaned towards a three-tiered system. One part inspired by pankration or some other wrestling, mainly focused on throws, grappling, and one-on-one combat. One with lots of rotations and sweeping movements, focused on fighting against multiple opponents and evasion. And then the direct hitting and killing system, that nearly noone gets to see.

Anyway, I think a trouble for both Black Canary and Diana in these types of discussions is that neither of them are defined by their martial arts skill, unlike characters like Lady Shiva or Cass.

[Ascended]

Not really, there are also others:

-KARATE KID!!!
-BRONZE TIGER!!!
-BATMAN
-probably also Deathstroke and his daughter Rose (thanks to their abilities).

Karate Kid yeah, but he's a thousand years in the future so he doesn't count.

Bronze Tiger is definitely skilled, but I don't think he's as skilled as Dinah. Top 20 for sure, maybe Top 10, but not as good as Dinah.

I don't think Batman actually belongs in the Top 10 at all. Dude uses gadgets and out-thinks his opponents but in a straight up fight without his toys or a way to "cheat" I don't think he ranks that high. He's good, don't get me wrong, but he's the world's greatest detective, not the world's greatest martial artist. I think Nightwing is a better fighter than Bruce, when we look at just raw skill and ability.

The Wilsons.....they're both skilled but like Diana tend to favor weapons over unarmed combat. Rose is certainly one of the best martial artists of her generation, but she's nowhere close to Dinah's skill. And Slade is terrifying but, again, is more of a weapons master than a martial artist. I think he's like Diana; not as skilled a martial artist as Dinah, but between his gear, powers, and ability to plan and prepare a fight, he's arguably the most dangerous human alive. But his martial arts skill isn't on Dinah's level.

[j9ac9k]

Karate Kid is usually considered as the best DC Martial Artist EVER!!!

Hence the problem with Karate Kid. On paper, having mastered all known martial arts from all known planets should make him #1 on paper, and it's fine when he's relegated to the future, but anytime you compare him to Batman etc, nobody wants to see him kick their asses because of sentiment and popularity. Catwoman is a thief, her background and identity weren't built around fighting ability, but put her against Batman over and over and then make her his partner, his implied "equal" and of course she has to be presented as a great fighter on his level.

I am not sure of Canary's current backstory in terms of her training, but whether she was trained by the JSA or was a government agent, it's important that she's a good fighter. But as much as I love her as a character, she was given a sonic cry because fighting is not her main thing. It's not intrinsic to her character the way it is with characters who's identity is all about their martial arts. I'd stick her in top 10, and I'd definitely rank her above Catwoman or The Question or Green Arrow, I wouldn't place her above Deathstroke, Wonder Woman or Bonze Tiger.