What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[pkingdom]

My only real issue is the resurrection.

I understand that part of the problem comes before Krakoa, too much death (unnecessary death) in this books and i can see why Hickman doesnt want to bring back every mutant in one on one.

The problem is that the resurrection machine is still online, which makes them virtually inmortal and for me at least, it takes a lot from the story. I know that you dont need death to make a story interesting and danger can come from many other ways but removing the possibility of death, well, i like the risk in the story, just dont kill the characters and you dont need to resurrect them.

I prefer that the resurrection was used once for the mutants that he needs and then take it away. From here, start building the story and not killing characters like flies.

The Ressurection system isn't permanent but it's inclusion does more story telling potential for future writers and I think that's pretty exciting having certain talks about existential thinking like we have between Beast and Jean is ths stuff I live for lol

I agree the resurrection thing is just cheap as all get out, and trivialized a lot of earlier stories now

It also is being abused in XForce to show a bunch of gross gore just b/c they can get away with it (although in Domino's case she is living with a badly brutalized body...)

For me the question could come in like say Mystique finally confronts Moira, in a 1 on 1. Moira ends up putting her down and "resets" her to avoid memories of what sparked that conflict... things like that can get interesting

Also just in general the whole issue of "what consciousness do you back someone up at" like how Vulcan, Pyro, Shinobi Shaw, others... are apparently being revived with missing memories which are CRUCIAL to their essence as characters really. It's a tricky ethical topic I mean you want to avoid them becoming supervillains again but at what cost, aren't you forcing them to have a new personality? That's not right.

I've seen it said that the resurrection system is to "take death off the table for writers". Which is just stupid. You can have a fantastic story with major stakes without killing characters like flies. Just look at almost the entire rest of the Marvel line. To put it bluntly, if you want to stop telling X-men stories about them dying, then STOP WRITING X STORIES THAT INVOLVE THEM DYING.

The resurrections are bad for me for three reasons:

1) They remove all stakes. They're no reason to be invested in any of the fights with the people out to exterminate them, since even if there's a massacre its more an inconvenience. Essentially, mutant death is still being used as a motivating factor for the cast and readers, when it functionally does not matter. Russia or Brazil could have killed every mutant present in Maruaders, and they would all be fine on Krakoa in a couple days. Everyone at the economic summit could have been slaughtered and it wouldn't change anything. Its already being used for lazy storytelling in X-factor, with people dying so much its a wonder they lasted this long. Death isn't so much off the table as its less debilitating than a broken arm.

2) Its presentation is sabotaging its narrative justification. This has to do with the lazy storytelling. Essentially, and as many users here have argued, the resurrections appeal to mutants as a way to reunite with their loved ones. The shady aspects of Krakoa are negligable to see your friends and family again. The problem is that that is not what we are seeing. Because Hickman isn't interested (by his own admission) in telling any stories about people reuniting with their friends and families, the reader is robbed of any emotional connection with the concept. We aren't given any reason to care. The only thing we are seeing is it being treated as a respawn point.

3) I've seen it before, and done better. This is entirely personal, but this is a collection of sci-fi tropes I have seen before. Quite a bit, actually. Some of it has even been used in other Marvel comics. You mention the consciousness issue? Seen it. Hell, I've seen it in stories that do and don't have confirmed afterlives and souls. I know these story beats. I know what's coming. Its boring, and makes the X men look like idiots. It feels like an obvious bad idea that's going to blow up in their faces in 6 months.

I've voiced that rocking with certain villains is just a powder keg waiting to explode, but beyond that... it just feels really haphazard. Like for all the effort presumably put forth to make the nation work... a lot of it feels like it's flying by the seat of its pants.

Combined with the bad idea of the resurrection, this is why I can't take Krakoa seriously. Another obvious bad idea. As soon as they showed up and got much of the leading positions, it became clear that Krakoa isn't meant to last. Its another example of a story decision that has results visible from space. Again, it makes them look like idiots, and damages they're credibility as heroes. I'm going to have trouble when it all comes apart being interested in Betsy, Rictor and Jubilee, because I'll always be thinking of that extended period where working with Apocalypse and helping him in his schemes. This is, again, entirely personal, and I know a lot of people have no trouble disassociating things like this.

[Tycon]

I agree the resurrection thing is just cheap as all get out, and trivialized a lot of earlier stories now

It also is being abused in XForce to show a bunch of gross gore just b/c they can get away with it (although in Domino's case she is living with a badly brutalized body...)

For me the question could come in like say Mystique finally confronts Moira, in a 1 on 1. Moira ends up putting her down and "resets" her to avoid memories of what sparked that conflict... things like that can get interesting

Also just in general the whole issue of "what consciousness do you back someone up at" like how Vulcan, Pyro, Shinobi Shaw, others... are apparently being revived with missing memories which are CRUCIAL to their essence as characters really. It's a tricky ethical topic I mean you want to avoid them becoming supervillains again but at what cost, aren't you forcing them to have a new personality? That's not right.

No one remembers their deaths, so that isn’t something unique to those character. And how are earlier stories being trivialized? X-amen literally come back all the time. There are in-universe jokes about it at this point. If anything is trivializing those stories, it’s bringing those characters back with no explanation or plan to tell one to use them in a role that may end up killing them again. It removes the weight of the stories they died in, like Pyro being brought back in Grace’s Iceman or Rosencanny as a villain after perishing to the Legacy Virus. With an actual explanation and system that brings these characters back while also respecting their deaths, those stories still matter and count but now we understand why they have been brought back.

I do agree with you on the X-Force thing. That’s the one thing I feared about the Resurrection Protocols, but luckily it’s only isolated to that title.

[loke13]

Question but what gore is being abused using the Ressurection protocol that wasn't being abused before? The only thing I can think of is probably QQ decapitated body. Other than that all the other deaths have been pretty goreless. And the X-Force title has always been one to not shy away from blood and guts especially with the Wolverine characters.

[Tycon]

Question but what gore is being abused using the Ressurection protocol that wasn't being abused before? The only thing I can think of is probably QQ decapitated body. Other than that all the other deaths have been pretty goreless. And the X-Force title has always been one to not shy away from blood and guts especially with the Wolverine characters.

The mass shooting in the first issue.

[Wolverine12]

Arrogance and domination is an attitude, not a strategy. You don't change your personality depending on circumstances.

Attitude isn't the same thing as personality. I can have a great personality and a shitty attitude due to circumstances I find myself in.

You say that mutants have human allies, fine. But, how do these human allies feel about this attitude? Are they ok with mutants displaying "arrogance and domination"? More, alliances are not the same as friendships. We can see in our world how they can break easily…

Honestly who cares how the humans feel? The X-Men haven't abandoned their human friends, the people that have been their allies all along don't have anything to worry about. The humans that do have a problem with the new mutant status are the reason the new status exists in the first place. I think Cyclops summed it up best when speaking to Susan Storm in HoX #1.

Even if for some reason the X-Men went full Inhuman and completely isolated themselves that is their choice to make, the humans don't get a say in the matter.

The Queen of England… well, of UK has no political power. Elisabeth Braddock, only answering to the Queen, is undermining the UK government (which really don't need it).

This is a staw man argument, you know exactly what I meant by this. If you really feel this way than Captain Britain has been undermining the UK gov't his entire career.

I agree on one point: Genosha and Utopia have failed because the didn't try to find allies outside the mutant realm...

Genosha failed because it was obliterated by Sentinels that were ordered to attack by a human who was under the influence of whatever Cassandra Nova is. No amount of outside allies would have stopped that. I'll concede the point on Utopia, but I would note it was brought down from with in partially due to the schism between Logan and Scott.

[Kisinith]

What do I like about Krakoa, interesting question. Answer a lot (so be prepared for a long post), there are a ton of things I like and truthfully I don’t see a lot to dislike. First is easy, I’ve read Hickman in the past and I’m a fan of his work and his style. I’m also a fan of sci-fi and the X-Men leaning hard into that works for me. Also there is some real life context that influences my opinion, I’m a history teacher at a special needs school (students with high functioning autism, social/emotional, and trauma histories).

If I’m being totally honest a big part of my liking of the Krakoan status is my utter disgust with the previous status quo. Not just Rosencanny or Age of X, but I’ve been generally unhappy with the state of the X-Men for a very long while, at least since schism. (Probably a lot longer, probably since Morrison at least but that’ll do for now) Schism was a garbage story that wrecked and ruined damn near half the franchise. There have been some books and characters that I’ve liked in that time and while I certainly have favorites I’ve considered myself a fan of the X-Men more than that of a specific character. However from schism onwards at least half of the characters and comics pushing that narrative were straight up unlikeable and I wanted nothing to do with them. I’ve generally been of the opinion that there has only been one or two comics worth reading, frequently not even that, since then.

Schism has been “over” for a while yet you still kept getting digs and comments and dickish character moments trying to push a narrative the one side was wrong, a sentiment that never rang true to me. This brings me to my next major reason to like Krakoa, its truly the first status since 2011 not to be mired in the dog crap of schism era. The titles and the characters are all elevated by that fact alone. (Hell I don't hate reading Beast right now)

That also transitions nicely to my next reason that I like Krakoa, no more misery porn. Speaking of misery porn, I strongly agree with one of Hickman’s central criticisms of the X-line. Throughout the last couple of decades the X-Men have been locked into a seemingly perpetual cycle of deconstruction, pointless “shocking” deaths as every writer tries to outdo the previous with how bad it can get and how much it sucks to be a mutant. In fact characters are now smiling and daring to feel optimistic for what feels like the first time in a long time. Even though the plot is expressly dealing with mutant extinction it doesn’t feel like they have one foot in the grave and are fighting a losing battle… and then another… and another…

Hickman has expressly stated that one of his overarching goals is to break that cycle so that’s another positive. Tied into this, he has come up with a clever way of utilizing under-used characters to fix all of the X-line’s broken toys. The revolving door of death in the X-line was absurd a long time ago, and while the resurrection protocols and “The 5” as an idea are goofy, hokey, a bit silly, so what? Its better than many of the dumb ideas they’ve used in resurrection stories (hot claws, phoenix Wolverine, Phoenix everything) and it fixed all of the broken toys. Some stories, some deaths may have been good (I disagree) but the vast majority were just bad and I’m glad they got better (Quick aside, there is something inherently goofy and enjoyable about writing X character died, but got better).

So far these reasons have been mostly I like it because its not what the X-Men have been mired in for so long and that’s true but incomplete because I really do like what they are doing in universe as well. There is a great quote that’s been floating around since the 1980’s that misattributed to Einstein, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. For years the X-Men have done that very thing, be nice, be heroic, give people a positive example and one day maybe they’ll accept you, one day they'll stop trying to kill you. By itself that’s fine but the other party (MU humanity) in this hasn’t been worthy of that for a long while. Atrocity after atrocity, genocide after genocide, murderous individuals, shady and corrupt governments, humanity as a whole (not necessarily individually) has been so endemically, unfailingly murderous that continuing as they have always done has been insane to me for a long time. I work with a lot of trauma victims and the relationship between the X-Men/mutants (as a whole) and humans feels very similar to an abusive relationship. The victim (the X-Men) keep trying to be better, more worthy, better behaved, hoping that this time it’ll be different and it never is. I strongly like the fact that they aren’t trying to earn equality through good deeds but are standing up and demanding it.

I’m a history teacher and this is a point that rings very true to me, I honestly cannot think of any time in human history when equality was simply given. ( I will allow that although I am well versed in history my knowledge is incomplete and heavily influenced by my country of origin USA). Its always something that had to be demanded, forced to be recognized. In the US it took nearly a century from the end of the civil war until it adopted the civil rights amendments and in that time there were a lot of very good, very heroic individuals who no matter how “good” they were never had a chance of getting the love and acceptance they were due. It’s not until it got taken out of the community, until people challenged the status and made it a national issue, that it started to change. Many of the people instrumental in that change were labeled criminals and villains, some of them earned that label but they were also necessary. Also while it's clearly gotten better we still fail on that topic pretty badly.

Krakoa is similar to this, so far at least the policies and stated goals are in line with this type of thinking. Not earning rights but demanding them as equals. The economic policy is pure fantasy and fiction but brilliant within the setting. The fastest way to effect change in the real world is to go through the pocketbook. The economic platform put forward in X-Men #4 made my inner history nerd geek out. So obviously I kinda liked it. In the MU the animosity of the governments is one of the biggest contributing factors in damn near every extinction of the month storyline and I have yet to see a better plan for reducing those tensions.

Next up, I love the inclusion of the villains, not because they suddenly became heroes, or that the X-Men have suddenly become villains. I don’t believe either has happened. This status quo strikes me as being about mutant society, and like it or not they are a part of that. Society has good people and bad people, heroes and villains and the story is better for their inclusion. The villains want the same thing but their methods are going to be different on achieving it. I think, and yes this is a guess but its an educated one based on what we’ve seen so far, that one of the ongoing stories is going to be Krakoan internal conflict between mutant factions. Shaw in Marauders, Apocalypse in Excalibur these two have already been shown to be in conflict with other mutants. X-Force seems to be hinting at future issues with Black Tom. All the villains on the quiet council, why are they there? I don’y think it has anything to do with sudden changes in Xavier or the X-Men, its because those mutants were needed (Sinister and Shaw) or had too much power, influence and followers (Apocalypse, Exodus and Mystique) to keep off. It also makes for a more interesting story and sadly is more reflective or actual governments that distressingly frequently have people in them that no sane person would ever want near power. Also by and large I don't think that the villains have stopped being villains, just that the role has changed.

Next I love how the books are structured. Each book is tackling a different aspect of Krakoan society and the issues facing it. X-Men is about world building and seeding future conflicts. X-Force is the mutant intelligence agency and dealing with terrorist style attacks on Krakoa. Marauders is building the trade and political conflicts with the Hellfire co. and rescuing threatened mutants. Excalibur is exploring the plots of Apocalypse and development of mutant magic. New Mutants (original) are exploring relations with the Shi’ar an important and longtime ally and sometime foe, also Roberto is rich. Fallen Angels has been exploring both the Krakoan outsiders and most recently reaffirming that they won’t simply abandon humanity to monsters and villains. The upcoming Hellions book will obviously be looking in on what Sinister is doing.

Lastly, perhaps most simply why do I like the Krakoan status quo? Because I want to see what happens next.

[Lapsus]

I've seen it said that the resurrection system is to "take death off the table for writers". Which is just stupid. You can have a fantastic story with major stakes without killing characters like flies. Just look at almost the entire rest of the Marvel line. To put it bluntly, if you want to stop telling X-men stories about them dying, then STOP WRITING X STORIES THAT INVOLVE THEM DYING.

The resurrections are bad for me for three reasons:

1) They remove all stakes. They're no reason to be invested in any of the fights with the people out to exterminate them, since even if there's a massacre its more an inconvenience. Essentially, mutant death is still being used as a motivating factor for the cast and readers, when it functionally does not matter. Russia or Brazil could have killed every mutant present in Maruaders, and they would all be fine on Krakoa in a couple days. Everyone at the economic summit could have been slaughtered and it wouldn't change anything. Its already being used for lazy storytelling in X-factor, with people dying so much its a wonder they lasted this long. Death isn't so much off the table as its less debilitating than a broken arm.

2) Its presentation is sabotaging its narrative justification. This has to do with the lazy storytelling. Essentially, and as many users here have argued, the resurrections appeal to mutants as a way to reunite with their loved ones. The shady aspects of Krakoa are negligable to see your friends and family again. The problem is that that is not what we are seeing. Because Hickman isn't interested (by his own admission) in telling any stories about people reuniting with their friends and families, the reader is robbed of any emotional connection with the concept. We aren't given any reason to care. The only thing we are seeing is it being treated as a respawn point.

3) I've seen it before, and done better. This is entirely personal, but this is a collection of sci-fi tropes I have seen before. Quite a bit, actually. Some of it has even been used in other Marvel comics. You mention the consciousness issue? Seen it. Hell, I've seen it in stories that do and don't have confirmed afterlives and souls. I know these story beats. I know what's coming. Its boring, and makes the X men look like idiots. It feels like an obvious bad idea that's going to blow up in their faces in 6 months.



Combined with the bad idea of the resurrection, this is why I can't take Krakoa seriously. Another obvious bad idea. As soon as they showed up and got much of the leading positions, it became clear that Krakoa isn't meant to last. Its another example of a story decision that has results visible from space. Again, it makes them look like idiots, and damages they're credibility as heroes. I'm going to have trouble when it all comes apart being interested in Betsy, Rictor and Jubilee, because I'll always be thinking of that extended period where working with Apocalypse and helping him in his schemes. This is, again, entirely personal, and I know a lot of people have no trouble disassociating things like this.

I couldnt say better.

The respawn thing is also the reason for what i dont like that, if they start to die and coming back so easly, it cheaps their abilities.

[Killerbee911]

The Biggest like

This is the most hopefully for the mutant lives the book has been in ages, The set up of Krakoa allows mutants to have homes, family, and community. This is the most normal the X-men have been in awhile you see mutants doing dishes, you see mutants partying and having fun,etc. Mutants have normalish responsibilities like Politics ,Security and other jobs. The X-men have been either so mission focus or focus on extinction that stories with slice of life haven't had a chance to flourish. I like seeing my favorite characters happy sometimes and the bubble of isolation away from immediate that is Krakoa allows no matter how terrible things get that mutants have a little bit of happiness and bit of normalcy.

The Biggest dislike

Krakoa set up is a little too much scifi all at once Portals, Living island, coming back from the dead,etc. It could have been something like Ultimate X-men where magma or someone raise island plus no portals and one mass rez of everyone and no immortal mutants. I have no big problems with any of those things I just think more conventional thing will make transitioning in future easier and would have made it easier for some fans to accept what is going on.

In all I like how the status quo fixes some fundamental issues with X-men and put the mutants on a course to where stupid extinction stories are thing of the past. And as an added bonus I love that Hickman soft reset the line. And every major villain is available for future writers. And every major X-man is available for future writers. Hickman before his run is done has already left the X-men in better shape than he met it in when his time is up the Toy box is going to be way more filled than when other writers have left it.

[loke13]

The mass shooting in the first issue.

But that wasn't gory? Maybe graphic but perfectly pungent and well in line with the narrative punch it was trying to deliver.

[AbnormallyNormal]

But that wasn't gory? Maybe graphic but perfectly pungent and well in line with the narrative punch it was trying to deliver.

Quire being headless isn't gore? Wolvie in half and still alive isnt gore? Domino being SKINNED isnt gore? Please. And no that isn't done in every iteration of X-Force by any means, and it's only made more jarring due to the inclusion of A-list mainstream characters on this squad unlike many previous ones. The idea Jean Grey and Hank McCoy should even be on an "X-Force" is part of the strained characterization that defines this run broadly, and that requires explanation which has yet to come

[Devaishwarya]

I SEE you Kisinith...and I READ you, for Perfection.

[Odd Rödney]

I get why folks don't like the resurrection protocols but I keep imagining that they'll have decent story potential down the road. Like, what if the mutants start relying on the respawn only to have some villain completely obliterate cerebro and everything else needed to bring back the dead. In any event, I have reasonable expectations based on experience that Hickman will do something special with all of this. He blew my mind on Ultimate F.F, 616 F.F and Avengers and, for the most part, I've very much enjoyed what he's done in the x books thus far.

[Tycon]

But that wasn't gory? Maybe graphic but perfectly pungent and well in line with the narrative punch it was trying to deliver.

Gore doesn’t have to be guts spilling out. It was treating fan fav characters like bodies in a casualty which is exactly what we hoped we would get away from.

[CoCoBandz]

I get why folks don't like the resurrection protocols but I keep imagining that they'll have decent story potential down the road. Like, what if the mutants start relying on the respawn only to have some villain completely obliterate cerebro and everything else needed to bring back the dead. In any event, I have reasonable expectations based on experience that Hickman will do something special with all of this. He blew my mind on Ultimate F.F, 616 F.F and Avengers and, for the most part, I've very much enjoyed what he's done in the x books thus far.

"Completely obliterate Cerebro and everything needed to bring back the dead."

Why does it always have to be the most extreme case scenario though? That's OD.

[Kisinith]

The arguments against the resurrection protocols are incredibly disingenuous. Marvel in general and the X office specifically have been grossly misusing death as a narrative device for so long that it lost its bite and meaning long before Hickman came to the X-office. Death hasn't been anything more than a narrative time out for years, hell more X-men have died and recovered than have had the flu. When Wolverine, Cyclops or really anyone not named Jean Grey (because reasons) died over the last few years did anyone really believe they were going to stay dead? Hell even with Jean most people didn't think she would always be dead and kept waiting for her inevitable return. How can anyone claim that resurrection have removed stakes when no one believed in them in the first place?