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  1. #481

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Yeah, I think they've respected the spirit of the law. The humans they've killed were clearly aggressors (for example, in the X-Force issue those mercs absolutely slaughtered the civilian human staff at the Green Peace facility), so they weren't violating the law. However, if only for juicy story purposes I'd love to see scumbags like Exodus, Apocalypse, etc... kill off humans and then come up with justifications that prevent them from being punished, but make Jean, Kurt, etc... squirm and seethe. That'd be fertile ground for more storytelling, both with factions forming on the council itself and in Krakoan society in general. A story where the good guys on the island are fighting a battle of ideologies on the island would be fascinating.
    That...would actually be a really intriguing take! I'd love to see that, if only because it'd lay out a little more nuance than we're seeing right now and it'd probably clarify just where everyone stands and why!

  2. #482

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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Krakoa needs to be gayer.
    A fair point! I'm with ya!

  3. #483
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    What do you feel about this law is being undermined, if I might ask?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    It was understood to not be an absolute prohibition right at the outset, that there would be legitimate exceptions. So far the only two that have come up are in X-Force who its been stated have a mandated exception and one line to Lockheed in Marauders, who was defending Iceman against militant aggressive attackers. Also side-point Lockheed would be acting in self defense and he isn't a mutant so isn't subject to the resurrection protocols.
    You're right that at the time they made the law they were clear that they would have exceptions when situations would arise in the future. I may be mistaken in that I thought they were more clear about their intentions. 'Kill No Man because they are mortal and we are not' was my understanding, and I might be misremembering. But I didn't think they poke holes in it almost immediately. They've almost never jumped to lethal force for the racists and other groups who've attacked them. If all it took to justify killing people was 'they attacked us first and are trying to kill us' they could have gotten away with killing people by droves years ago. And making an exception for Lockheed like that is lame. "I didn't kill anyone, my pet attack dragon did! I can't be held accountable for him!" I know Logan and others have been willing to kill, but not everyone was OK with that. And Logan was often haunted by the number of people he had killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Krakoa needs to be gayer.
    As does everything. Make my Logan X Nightcrawler crack ship come true Marvel.

  4. #484

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    You're right that at the time they made the law they were clear that they would have exceptions when situations would arise in the future. I may be mistaken in that I thought they were more clear about their intentions. 'Kill No Man because they are mortal and we are not' was my understanding, and I might be misremembering. But I didn't think they poke holes in it almost immediately. They've almost never jumped to lethal force for the racists and other groups who've attacked them. If all it took to justify killing people was 'they attacked us first and are trying to kill us' they could have gotten away with killing people by droves years ago. And making an exception for Lockheed like that is lame. "I didn't kill anyone, my pet attack dragon did! I can't be held accountable for him!" I know Logan and others have been willing to kill, but not everyone was OK with that. And Logan was often haunted by the number of people he had killed.



    As does everything. Make my Logan X Nightcrawler crack ship come true Marvel.
    No that's right; it was Jean's logic, actually.

    Also, I wonder if an arc or a series exploring the morality of lethal force might not be relevant nowadays? If only for the idea of weighing up what it means for an apparently 'immortal' mutant to face down a human. I'd imagine it'd be a fitting series for Beast, actually, in that he might actually try to just figure out what the hell could possibly be going through his opponents head that triggers such hatred?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-19-2020 at 09:22 PM.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Can I ask, when you say "what is should stand for", what do you mean? (Genuinely curious)

    And, in regards to mutant solidarity--I suppose this invites another interesting question for discussion: how easy would it be for any of us to extend forgiveness to someone who's harmed and even traumatised us if they either haven't offered an apology or made any efforts towards making it up to us?

    Is it fair that mutant antagonisers are forgiven for their past crimes by virtue of genetics while a human who might have committed a similar deed is not? Let's all discuss.
    Part of my problem with Krakoa and how they treat humans is the very simple fact that mutants terrorists and murderers and monsters are getting forgiveness and new jobs, but that same feeling cannot extend to human and nonmutant allies in general. Instead, again, it's just lumping big groups of people together.

    And let's remember, we know about Moira, most of the other characters don't. We know that underneath Krakoa, like literally underneath, we have Moira. Krakoa is essentially built on a lie. At the moment, it's a very small lie, but it's built on Moira and her god complex and on Magneto and Charles thinking theybknow better. The whole thing seems meant to be a bit off.
    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Krakoa needs to be gayer.

    We can all agree on this.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post

    And let's remember, we know about Moira, most of the other characters don't. We know that underneath Krakoa, like literally underneath, we have Moira. Krakoa is essentially built on a lie. At the moment, it's a very small lie, but it's built on Moira and her god complex and on Magneto and Charles thinking theybknow better. The whole thing seems meant to be a bit off.


    We can all agree on this.
    I don't know if thats really a bad thing though. Like no government in the world offers 100% percent transparency with its citizens. I think at a certain level of nation making compartmentalization of information is required. No one can spill all the secrets because no one knows 100% of the plan.

    Now that's not to say that what the Big 3 are doing is right and I'm sure there's going to be a storyline coming up where those secrets are exposed and conflict arises because well this is a story you need to have drama. But I also think it's logical to keep that information to as small a group as possible.

  7. #487
    Mighty Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    If Krakoa is an established land/country.... they need a military.

  8. #488
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    If Krakoa is an established land/country.... they need a military.
    The X-men are its military

  9. #489
    Mighty Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    The X-men are its military
    No. They are a handful of mutants.

    Krakoa should have a military force consisting of resurrected Genoshans, Morlocks, and others.

  10. #490
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    How many mutants are actually living on there at this point? Do they even have enough for a proper military?

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Can I ask, when you say "what is should stand for", what do you mean? (Genuinely curious)

    And, in regards to mutant solidarity--I suppose this invites another interesting question for discussion: how easy would it be for any of us to extend forgiveness to someone who's harmed and even traumatised us if they either haven't offered an apology or made any efforts towards making it up to us?

    Is it fair that mutant antagonisers are forgiven for their past crimes by virtue of genetics while a human who might have committed a similar deed is not? Let's all discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Krakoa needs to be gayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    I don't know if thats really a bad thing though. Like no government in the world offers 100% percent transparency with its citizens. I think at a certain level of nation making compartmentalization of information is required. No one can spill all the secrets because no one knows 100% of the plan.

    Now that's not to say that what the Big 3 are doing is right and I'm sure there's going to be a storyline coming up where those secrets are exposed and conflict arises because well this is a story you need to have drama. But I also think it's logical to keep that information to as small a group as possible.
    It's not that secrets are being kept, it's the kind of secrets. Moira's resurrections are one thing, but their ultimate plan for mutants seems to be some sort of super-databased mass of consciousness. That isn't something everyone might be up for

  12. #492
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    I’m liking the X-Men having more stuff to handle than just the mansion and the diplomacy that comes with it. The only thing I still am not a fan of is the sort of cold/military/sociopathic-esque attitudes coming from them, as justified as some fans may say their attitudes are. This isn’t to justify they aren’t allowed to feel that way after all the atrocities the previous writers wrote them through, this is looking at it from a personal entertainment/engagement standpoint even with that understanding.

  13. #493
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Iím liking the X-Men having more stuff to handle than just the mansion and the diplomacy that comes with it. The only thing I still am not a fan of is the sort of cold/military/sociopathic-esque attitudes coming from them, as justified as some fans may say their attitudes are. This isnít to justify they arenít allowed to feel that way after all the atrocities the previous writers wrote them through, this is looking at it from a personal entertainment/engagement standpoint even with that understanding.
    Angry, disappointed, depressed, surlyÖ I can understand. But cold, no.
    "Ö something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  14. #494
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    No. They are a handful of mutants.

    Krakoa should have a military force consisting of resurrected Genoshans, Morlocks, and others.
    They’re a handful of mutants who could individually probably take out 100 people. 10 wolves, 100 sheep and all that.

  15. #495
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Angry, disappointed, depressed, surly… I can understand. But cold, no.
    Agreed I like Scott and Logan always has good writting and it`s given the benefit of doubt always but I have a hard time seeing Storm, Jean and Kurt being cold and magneto talking about them being gods when he has really never talked that way, his pov of humans being afraid of mutants come from his experiences of the war and Magda`s fear of him, not his powers per se.

    That`s why I would like to see more day to day interactions between the X-men in a normal setting, I can see Storm, Jean and Kurt acting tough and even cold on the Quiet Council because they are in front of Apocaypse, Sinister, Shaw, Mystique, Exodus, them being seen as soft would not help to their points being taken seriously on the Council, even Charles kind of tried to use the Sabretooth issue to show how tough he was about their new status quo, but we need to see them without that armor, see what Jean, Storm think about their fellow council members and what they are doing, see charles out of that cerebro helmet outside of an hostile context like the one of X-men 4 to see why he changed his views and I think it would be really fun to see Apocalypse clash on povs with both Magneto and Xavier, with Magneto finding himself on the really strange place of being the middle man between two opposites povs.
    I want to see Magneto and Lorna having a day off, thinking about Genosha and what they can do to protect Krakoa in the event it happens again, etc.

    I liked the idea of different, lest say, political ideologies being fought back and forth on the council, the actual status quo seems to be going in that direction and it would be a nice political thriller to see but first I would like to see some warn hearted moments between mutants so Krakoa feels like a real home and refuge for mutants imo.

    Of course it all it`s built around Moira and her manipulations, Hickman did say HOX is like HOM in the sense that it SEEMS to be made to fail and burn after the ilusion is gone but the thing is that`s has been the X-men story of the past decade so I expect to see that fall but also seeing them healing after it in a way the decimation times never allowed them.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 01-20-2020 at 04:19 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

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