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  1. #466
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I only read scans. I wanted context.

  2. #467
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I only read scans. I wanted context.
    Technically the Queen decided to accept Betsy as Captain Britain so Betsy calmed down the team who were defending themselves from a mutant-hating protest group, in honor of her new position. So though she is Krakoan, she's respectful of her role in Britain.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  3. #468

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    OK

    Just letting everyone on here know that I'm not too well as of now (post operative neuralgia) and am kind of fighting to get my pain under control. Just been glancing through the last few pages, however, and I want to say that I'm not pleased with the level of sniping at other users going on here.

    I want to remind people: This is a safe place for people to openly discuss what they do/do not like about this concept and EXPLAIN OR ASK WHY. That means that we acknowledge, here that no one interpretation is uniform:

    Tycon, you posted that scan of Fallen Angels #5, why do you and Jbenito believe that, though we are finally seeing a group of mutants not quite settled with Krakoa's direction, we'll be seeing that theme carried on in future titles? Does one group truly speak on a broad enough scale that attitudes on Krakoa can be considered "balanced", especially when this particular group is acting 'covert', i.e, underground. Could this attitude not be considered unpopular about the main island? What are the implications of that?

  4. #469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I guess my thing is the whole condescending attitude towards humans everyone has now. Like even when they help humans, there's this air of just smugness to it. Even the "kill no human" rule is built on the fact that they see human life as being finite while they think they're immortal.

    And you know, I get some of it, but at the same time, it's rather annoying, especially when they're lumping all humans together.

    It's not creating a better world, it's just perpetuating the same old bullshit just with mutants on top and humans below. And I'm sure that's sort of the point.
    I actually feel the same way here; it feels difficult, at times, to discern where any 'genuine' compassion or even affection comes from. I do find, though, that it depends on which character that comes from. So, for example, I find Logan's argument against falling into an 'Us vs them' mentality much more genuine than seeing Scott interact with his father, or even Jean's defence as seen in Orchis.

    I wonder, at times, if this is due to either how it's said, or what sort of 'air' we get from a character? Or if it's perhaps influenced by more than that? By who gets on with who?

    The entirety of the "Quiet council", for example; the air that all characters who are part of that, to me, seems off-putting for some reason; there's a heightened arrogance there that I can't tell if comes as part of being a politician, or from such hypocrisy as you've stated?

    What about those of you who feel to the contrary: what do you think?

  5. #470
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I actually feel the same way here; it feels difficult, at times, to discern where any 'genuine' compassion or even affection comes from. I do find, though, that it depends on which character that comes from. So, for example, I find Logan's argument against falling into an 'Us vs them' mentality much more genuine than seeing Scott interact with his father, or even Jean's defence as seen in Orchis.

    I wonder, at times, if this is due to either how it's said, or what sort of 'air' we get from a character? Or if it's perhaps influenced by more than that? By who gets on with who?

    The entirety of the "Quiet council", for example; the air that all characters who are part of that, to me, seems off-putting for some reason; there's a heightened arrogance there that I can't tell if comes as part of being a politician, or from such hypocrisy as you've stated?
    Well, no contradictory opinion from me, because I feel the same way as Rosebusne from the scans I see…
    This Magneto, the way he is described, is completely out-of-character for me: the arrogance he felt in the past (Claremont's era) came from thinking he was right, that he knows better than anyone thanks to his (bad) experience, it wasn't about his powers, he wasn't a supremacist… However, it is the way it is written lately ("we are gods…"). The same for Ororo… Again and again… in the past, it has been said that Ororo wasn't a goddess. Now she seems to take herself very seriously which is not sympathetic from my point of view.
    The drawing doesn't help too… too expressionless…
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  6. #471

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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    But their is dissenting opinion. We've seen it. It just so happens that for a large majority people are pretty content with what Krakoa is offering. Now I do think we'll get some conflict but I don't think it'll come from those who disagree with Krakoa but rather those who disagree with what it should stand for.

    Also I love the fact that mutants standing with each other (the good and the bad) in solidarity is such a foreign concept that's some people think that there's some sort of brainwashing Shenanigans happening behind the scenes.
    Can I ask, when you say "what is should stand for", what do you mean? (Genuinely curious)

    And, in regards to mutant solidarity--I suppose this invites another interesting question for discussion: how easy would it be for any of us to extend forgiveness to someone who's harmed and even traumatised us if they either haven't offered an apology or made any efforts towards making it up to us?

    Is it fair that mutant antagonisers are forgiven for their past crimes by virtue of genetics while a human who might have committed a similar deed is not? Let's all discuss.

  7. #472

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Well, no contradictory opinion from me, because I feel the same way as Rosebusne from the scans I see…
    The Magneto, the way he is described, is completely out-of-character for me: the arrogance he felt in the past (Claremont's era) came from thinking he was right, that he knows better than anyone thanks to his (bad) experience, it wasn't about his powers, he wasn't a supremacist… However, it is the way it is written lately ("we are gods…"). The same for Ororo… Again and again… in the past, it has been said that Ororo wasn't a goddess. Now she seems to take herself very seriously which is not sympathetic from my point of view.
    The drawing doesn't help too… too expressionless…
    Now that's really interesting in regards to Magneto! Might I ask; what about Claremont's era prevented you from seeing him as a supremacist? Was it because you were able to better sympathise with him because he too was, in a sense, an underdog? Or...?

    And what do you feel about Ororo's acting, to you, seems to be pushing her towards a "supremacist" attitude, if I'm understanding right? I know the fandom has often celebrated her as a goddess, despite her saying to the contrary (though she is descended from a godly bloodline!) is there, perhaps, some bias on the fandom's part in regards to how they want or expect her to react vs how the character actually might? And is that even a fair point to bring up in the first place?

  8. #473
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Now that's really interesting in regards to Magneto! Might I ask; what about Claremont's era prevented you from seeing him as a supremacist? Was it because you were able to better sympathise with him because he too was, in a sense, an underdog? Or...?
    Magneto has always insisted that there were no peace possible between mutants and 'humans', that the 'humans' will always be too afraid of them to be able to accept them. It was his bone of contention with Charles Xavier.
    In a way, what he said was logical: his powers were really terrifying… But the corollary of that is, if the humans weren't afraid of the mutants, his argument would have disappeared and he would have no problems with living with the humans…
    He shared the same dream than Charles Xavier, back then, the only difference was about the attitude of the 'humans' which is logical: they come from very different backgrounds…

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And what do you feel about Ororo's acting, to you, seems to be pushing her towards a "supremacist" attitude, if I'm understanding right? I know the fandom has often celebrated her as a goddess, despite her saying to the contrary (though she is descended from a godly bloodline!) is there, perhaps, some bias on the fandom's part in regards to how they want or expect her to react vs how the character actually might? And is that even a fair point to bring up in the first place?
    I don't know about the fandom, but I remember Ororo as a kind person, elegant and full of dignity. Pretentious is the last word who could define her… The way she talks now… but I only read the scans, so…
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  9. #474
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    I'm becoming increasingly annoyed that they're already poking holes in the "Kill No Man" rule. When they put that rule in place, they justified it as "We're immortal and they are not. It is not right for us to kill those with finite lives." I don't sympathize with the cartoon racists and mercs who've shown up in Marauders and X-Force, but if they immediately ditch in when they get attacked then it feels pretty pointless. Especially considering the gravitas that original scene had, and the fact that its one of the only 3 laws the entire country has.

  10. #475

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I'm becoming increasingly annoyed that they're already poking holes in the "Kill No Man" rule. When they put that rule in place, they justified it as "We're immortal and they are not. It is not right for us to kill those with finite lives." I don't sympathize with the cartoon racists and mercs who've shown up in Marauders and X-Force, but if they immediately ditch in when they get attacked then it feels pretty pointless. Especially considering the gravitas that original scene had, and the fact that its one of the only 3 laws the entire country has.
    What do you feel about this law is being undermined, if I might ask?

  11. #476
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I'm becoming increasingly annoyed that they're already poking holes in the "Kill No Man" rule. When they put that rule in place, they justified it as "We're immortal and they are not. It is not right for us to kill those with finite lives." I don't sympathize with the cartoon racists and mercs who've shown up in Marauders and X-Force, but if they immediately ditch in when they get attacked then it feels pretty pointless. Especially considering the gravitas that original scene had, and the fact that its one of the only 3 laws the entire country has.
    It was understood to not be an absolute prohibition right at the outset, that there would be legitimate exceptions. So far the only two that have come up are in X-Force who its been stated have a mandated exception and one line to Lockheed in Marauders, who was defending Iceman against militant aggressive attackers. Also side-point Lockheed would be acting in self defense and he isn't a mutant so isn't subject to the resurrection protocols.

  12. #477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    It was understood to not be an absolute prohibition right at the outset, that there would be legitimate exceptions. So far the only two that have come up are in X-Force who its been stated have a mandated exception and one line to Lockheed in Marauders, who was defending Iceman against militant aggressive attackers. Also side-point Lockheed would be acting in self defense and he isn't a mutant so isn't subject to the resurrection protocols.
    I suppose, then, that also opens up the old "Morality vs Legality" argument if we're wondering how 'easy' characters might find it either to joke about or commit murder. Logan's always been a good character to explore that through.

  13. #478
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think they've respected the spirit of the law. The humans they've killed were clearly aggressors (for example, in the X-Force issue those mercs absolutely slaughtered the civilian human staff at the Green Peace facility), so they weren't violating the law. However, if only for juicy story purposes I'd love to see scumbags like Exodus, Apocalypse, etc... kill off humans and then come up with justifications that prevent them from being punished, but make Jean, Kurt, etc... squirm and seethe. That'd be fertile ground for more storytelling, both with factions forming on the council itself and in Krakoan society in general. A story where the good guys on the island are fighting a battle of ideologies on the island would be fascinating.

  14. #479
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that fans decided that "edicts" meant "a loose set of guidelines".

    Or are we going to hop on the "mutant abortion" merry-go-round again?

  15. #480
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Krakoa needs to be gayer.

    Last edited by H-E-D; 01-19-2020 at 08:59 PM.

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