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  1. #391
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I've seen you argue this before, so, I'm curious: what more meaningful reforms can mutants enact from Krakoa that are guaranteed to be listened to? Or accepted? Which 'larger audience' will they be reaching; politicians or the people who put them in place?
    A lot, way more than people tend to think. International relations and agreements are significantly different than internal laws proposed through legislation. Typically, treaties are negotiated by a relatively small number of people then submitted to the main governing body for approval. Internally proposed legislation has to pass through many layers of government, pass through many hands which affords significantly more opportunities to derail said legislation.

    Operating on the national/international level allows you to recruit other groups and nations to apply political and economic pressure to effect change.

    There are a few good examples of this in history (which will be grossly simplified for space related issues)
    Apartheid in South Africa, for decades there was official legal repression in South Africa from the white minority. Internal opposition to Apartheid, although significant wasn't terribly effective and largely led to increasing violence from both sides. Now, I've no desire to devalue the efforts of motivated South Africans to effect change but the most valuable thing they did was motivate the outside world. Apartheid came to an end because from the late 70's through the 80's the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed significant trade sanctions on South Africa. A movement for disinvestment by many more countries was similarly widespread, with individual cities and provinces around the world implementing various laws and local regulations forbidding registered corporations under their jurisdiction from doing business with South African firms, factories, or banks. The overwhelming international political pressure and crippled economy forced change.

    Civil Rights in the USA
    The 13th amendment was passed on December 6, 1865 and the civil rights act of 1866 that made former slaves into citizens. By the end of the 1870s, violent white supremacists came to power and imposed Jim Crow laws that deprived African-Americans of voting rights and instituted official segregation that limited where blacks could legally walk, talk, drink, rest, or eat. Over the next hundred years there were lots of attempts to effect internal change at the local and state level that went largely nowhere. In the 1950's the black community began policies of direct action to challenge the institutions of segregation. They recognized that they could not effect change from within a rigged system that wouldn't allow them to vote. Their policies were to force supreme court challenges and expose the brutality of segregationist systems to people around the country. The segregationist states by and large did not choose to fix the rampant injustices in their systems but were forced to by federal mandate that only occurred by galvanizing non-segregationist states against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And, though your historical point is fascinating; how can we equate that in a modern day sense? Are we seeing any of it today between nations we trade with? And though humans will clamour for the product offered, does that guarantee love and acceptance of the people who made it? As we've seen in history, though a people may offer an invaluable service and may even be pillars of that industry they can still very well be victims of discrimination and hatred in spite of it. Do you think mutants might become a further abstract concept: "The people who make drugs" rather than "My friend Jenny"?
    1.jpg
    Marauders #5 page 16

    You can find parallels with any product with significant enough scarcity, but that level of scarcity and need isn't something you see in the real world. As we see in the data page however (I know you love them so) is that in the fictional world of the MU, so far so good. The advantages the mutants have is that they are the only source and overt violent action would eliminate the product as well as the people.
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    Last edited by Kisinith; 01-15-2020 at 06:13 PM.

  2. #392
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And what of Emma and her phrasing, do you think?
    In fairness, with the exception of mayber her Gen-X days, that is 100% in character for Emma to say.

    What gets me about Dani's comment is that it's referring mostly to schools... except that it seems to act like the American school system is the only one across the planet.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I understand your perspective: but it still feels very manipulative, especially in regards to how she's stated she wants to "break" Charles. (But, 'sad', that's underselling it a bit isn't it? More like traumatic? Especially considering everything that she needed to happen and put in place to make it so?)

    I still think she could lying to Charles and Magneto. It's not definite: but we don't know if she has given the full picture until stated. But then, that is an interesting point as to the level of trust we, as readers, really do extend to these characters and why.

    May I ask: Why do you trust Moira? What makes you think she has laid all her cards out on the table?

    (Again, also, not trying to sway your opinion: just a discussion! Let's see your perspective!)
    Well I can say I trust Moira because I feel like it might have done a pretty good job at laying out her motive so far. And more importantly the future of the mutant race is so bleak based on her nine lives that there's really no reason for her to lie.

    Mutants lose. They always lose and it always ends tragically. That's enough of a motivator for someone like Magneto and Xavier to get involved. Even if she was keeping certain details of her past lives a secret it's kind of a moot point in the face of inevitable Extinction I feel like.

    Have moira's past experiences made her a more radical person? Of course. I feel like that was one of the things powers of X number 2 wanted to get across. The escalation of her methods in order to save mutantkind.

  4. #394
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I didn't mean that that is why Krakoa was made. Obviously it was made as a safe haven for mutants after all of the massacres and genocide attempts. I meant that its unintentionally helping enabling further 'us vs. them' mentality in people.
    By itself, yes that would be correct but its coupled with greater international engagement and the benevolent pharmaceuticals. Basically a ton of good press to offset the negative

  5. #395

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    A lot, way more than people tend to think. International relations and agreements are significantly different than internal laws proposed through legislation. Typically, treaties are negotiated by a relatively small number of people then submitted to the main governing body for approval. Internally proposed legislation has to pass through many layers of government, pass through many hands which affords significantly more opportunities to derail said legislation.

    Operating on the national/international level allows you to recruit other groups and nations to apply political and economic pressure to effect change.

    There are a few good examples of this in history (which will be grossly simplified for space related issues)
    Apartheid in South Africa, for decades there was official legal repression in South Africa from the white minority. Internal opposition to Apartheid, although significant wasn't terribly effective and largely led to increasing violence from both sides. Now, I've no desire to devalue the efforts of motivated South Africans to effect change but the most valuable thing they did was motivate the outside world. Apartheid came to an end because from the late 70's through the 80's the United States, the United Kingdom, and 23 other nations had passed significant trade sanctions on South Africa. A movement for disinvestment by many more countries was similarly widespread, with individual cities and provinces around the world implementing various laws and local regulations forbidding registered corporations under their jurisdiction from doing business with South African firms, factories, or banks. The overwhelming international political pressure and crippled economy forced change.

    Civil Rights in the USA
    The 13th amendment was passed on December 6, 1865 and the civil rights act of 1866 that made former slaves into citizens. By the end of the 1870s, violent white supremacists came to power and imposed Jim Crow laws that deprived African-Americans of voting rights and instituted official segregation that limited where blacks could legally walk, talk, drink, rest, or eat. Over the next hundred years there were lots of attempts to effect internal change at the local and state level that went largely nowhere. In the 1950's the black community began policies of direct action to challenge the institutions of segregation. They recognized that they could not effect change from within a rigged system that wouldn't allow them to vote. Their policies were to force supreme court challenges and expose the brutality of segregationist systems to people around the country. The segregationist states by and large did not choose to fix the rampant injustices in their systems but were forced to by federal mandate that only occurred by galvanizing non-segregationist states against them.



    1.jpg

    You can find parallels with any product with significant enough scarcity, but that level of scarcity and need isn't something you see in the real world. As we see in the data page however (I know you love them so) is that in the fictional world of the MU, so far so good. The advantages the mutants have is that they are the only source and overt violent action would eliminate the product as well as the people.
    Ok, see, so that is really fascinating! So, because I actually cannot read which data page (you so an of an absolute bandwagon, by the way) that is (It's not the expansion-type attachment, I'm sorry? Just really tiny text there?) can you give any insight on how those policies and influences affected the people outside of the political spectrum? As in, you know, the citizens of South Africa and such?

  6. #396

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    By itself, yes that would be correct but its coupled with greater international engagement and the benevolent pharmaceuticals. Basically a ton of good press to offset the negative
    Well that is a good point; we do know that the media has a hell of an influence over how people view and sometimes treat other people. But does that still work if mutants aren't there to benefit from it. Some seem too traumatised, after all, to actually set foot off the island (X-Force #1 "You can't trust nothing that doesn't come through the gates!!") so, sociologically speaking, is it effective?


    (Again, not trying to argue, just probing the discussion as far as it'll take us. It's my mutant power: I poke holes in things.)

  7. #397
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Now, I'm a reader who actually does need help with this: I struggle to properly contextualise information at times. May I ask: how?

    (And I know, hell of a question, but any insight is appreciated! C'mon, help a disabled gal out!)

    Edit: Actually, scratch the first question--a better one: What do those quotes communicate to you? Might be easier to start from there!
    Here's my take:

    Emma sounds like Emma there so I see that as normal talk for her. Erik as well. I don't see them as out of character when they talk like this.

    Lorna is asking the question as we're all about to watch if the resurrection ceremony is going to work, after her friends were just killed trying to destroy a machine made specifically to kill them. Even then, I didn't see it as a malicious question and I liked how Erik responded about how humans taught them about society.

    I don't recall the context for what Dani said. But after all she's witnessed, I see the comment as her having little to no faith in humanity.

    EDIT: Oops I forgot Storm. That was during the fight with the soldiers guarding the facility where mutant babies were imprisoned and experimented on. I saw that as her really feeling herself in the moment, feeling her oats.
    (feel one's oats: To feel energetic or frisky; to behave in a vigorous or bold manner. (idiomatic) To feel important; to be empowered.)
    Last edited by Jbenito; 01-15-2020 at 06:26 PM.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  8. #398
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well that is a good point; we do know that the media has a hell of an influence over how people view and sometimes treat other people. But does that still work if mutants aren't there to benefit from it. Some seem too traumatised, after all, to actually set foot off the island (X-Force #1 "You can't trust nothing that doesn't come through the gates!!") so, sociologically speaking, is it effective?


    (Again, not trying to argue, just probing the discussion as far as it'll take us. It's my mutant power: I poke holes in things.)
    Just chiming in on this one. If the press helps quell the aggression of some of the more hateful humans then that will have a positive effect on the island and the safer they will feel. Someone on the island should put up a calendar and mark the number of days they suffer no invasions or attacks.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  9. #399
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well that is a good point; we do know that the media has a hell of an influence over how people view and sometimes treat other people. But does that still work if mutants aren't there to benefit from it. Some seem too traumatised, after all, to actually set foot off the island (X-Force #1 "You can't trust nothing that doesn't come through the gates!!") so, sociologically speaking, is it effective?

    (Again, not trying to argue, just probing the discussion as far as it'll take us. It's my mutant power: I poke holes in things.)
    No worries, I like arguing and debates it annoys the hell out of my students.

    To your point, some are too traumatized to leave Krakoa, many won't want to, some do leave and come back, there are positive connections with humans and pro human groups like the one in X-Force. Mutants (like Xavier) are engaging with nations in those nations (also X-Force). Some mutants didn't leave to go to Krakoa, (Pete Wisdom, Beak and family). Over and over in a relatively short time we've seen that while many or even most mutants have moved to Krakoa, the nation of Krakoa itself maintains a significant presence in the outside world (Krakoan embassies and gates, political meet and greets, the Davos conference). You also don't need to maintain a physical presence if you have a mental presence (not in a mutant psychic manner but in a more basic thinking about kind of way). In this a rockstar like approach (constantly in the media) would be more effective than a vastly dispersed population. Consider if there were 20 million mutants (all that died in genosha + even more) thats still only 0.0021% of the worlds population. More people are exposed to the mutants through the current media heavy approach than you would have had if they remained dispersed.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 01-15-2020 at 06:30 PM.

  10. #400

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Here's my take:

    Emma sounds like Emma there so I see that as normal talk for her. Erik as well. I don't see them as out of character when they talk like this.

    Lorna is asking the question as we're all about to watch if the resurrection ceremony is going to work, after her friends were just killed trying to destroy a machine made specifically to kill them. Even then, I didn't see it as a malicious question and I liked how Erik responded about how humans taught them about society.

    I don't recall the context for what Dani said. But after all she's witnessed, I see the comment as her having little to no faith in humanity.
    So I guess this is the million dollar question: normal talk or not for the characters mentioned (except Dani, which I'll get to in a sec,) is it discriminatory in and of itself? It comes from trauma, anger and pain, yes, but is it fair? Should their views be the one's rightfully glorified about the island, in your opinion? Should humans as a whole be looked down upon with such disdain and should we, as the audience, agree? Is it not hypocritical, at all, in your opinion?

    Dani's an interesting case though: as a character, she's fiercely proud of both her Cheyenne and Valkyrie heritage. Though she talks disparagingly about human ideologies, she's still wearing her cultural clothing (or, at least, still incorporates it as part of her costume/clothing)--is that appropriate? If she's lost faith in humanity, does her wearing Cheyenne elements not seem distasteful?

  11. #401

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    No worries, I like arguing and debates it annoys the hell out of my students.

    To your point, some are too traumatized to leave Krakoa, many won't want to, some do leave and come back, there are positive connections with humans and pro human groups like the one in X-Force. Mutants (like Xavier) are engaging with nations in those nations (also X-Force). Some mutants didn't leave to go to Krakoa, Pete Wisdom, Beak and family. Over and over in a relatively short time we've seen that while many or even most mutants have moved to Krakoa the nation of Krakoa maintains a significant presence in the outside world (Krakoan embassies and gates). You also don't need to maintain a physical presence if you have a mental presence (not in a mutant psychic manner but in a more basic thinking about kind of way). In this a rockstar like approach (constantly in the media) would be more effective than a vastly dispersed population. Consider if there were 20 million mutants (all that died in genosha + even more) thats still only 0.0021% of the worlds population. More people are exposed to the mutants through the current media heavy approach than you would have had if they remained dispersed.
    But that's still a very detached approach. In these instances you mention, there aren't many actual interactions between humans and mutants--mutants are still seen as this 'other' and, even in a positive outlook, a bit of a commodity? The two people's aren't really engaging on a social level, they're both just these abstract...things. Concepts, even?

    And even then, that doesn't account for mutants yet to be born in the human world? Will this approach be truly effective in incentivising them to stay, or will they still feel so 'othered' and misunderstood because of the 'celebrity' status that they'll leave anyway?

    And, to be clear, when I say this...ok, here's the context:

    Though we as people communicate through the internet pretty much constantly, we still don't really know each other this way. And, when I say that, I mean in terms of socialisation (which is rich coming from an autistic person but bear with me a sec,)--think of how, say on tumblr, races of people may be accidentally fetishised? 'Positive' aspects of their unique cultures are appropriated under the guise of 'acceptance' when attitudes don't really change? Not on a personal level? So, Beak's kids might always be to someone "My mutant friend! Do your cool thing!" or such?

    If that makes any sense?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #402
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    In fairness, with the exception of mayber her Gen-X days, that is 100% in character for Emma to say.

    What gets me about Dani's comment is that it's referring mostly to schools... except that it seems to act like the American school system is the only one across the planet.
    they all act like USA is equivalent of all human culture

  13. #403
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So I guess this is the million dollar question: normal talk or not for the characters mentioned (except Dani, which I'll get to in a sec,) is it discriminatory in and of itself? It comes from trauma, anger and pain, yes, but is it fair? Should their views be the one's rightfully glorified about the island, in your opinion? Should humans as a whole be looked down upon with such disdain and should we, as the audience, agree? Is it not hypocritical, at all, in your opinion?

    Dani's an interesting case though: as a character, she's fiercely proud of both her Cheyenne and Valkyrie heritage. Though she talks disparagingly about human ideologies, she's still wearing her cultural clothing (or, at least, still incorporates it as part of her costume/clothing)--is that appropriate? If she's lost faith in humanity, does her wearing Cheyenne elements not seem distasteful?
    This is heavily dependent on subsequent actions. Within the context of the story as it currently stands, the mutants of Krakoa have theoretically reached "the promised land" after horror after horror outside of Krakoa. A degree of arrogance and elitism is actually a very human reaction. In their minds they did just accomplish something great and they would be weary of more of the same from humanity. It becomes a question of what they do and if such talk continues. Context is hugely important here, not just what did they say but what happened that caused them to say it. humans experimenting on mutant children, the deaths of the Orchis team preventing Nimrod.

    edit* Also, no its not fair but it is very human

  14. #404

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    they all act like USA is equivalent of all human culture
    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    What gets me about Dani's comment is that it's referring mostly to schools... except that it seems to act like the American school system is the only one across the planet.
    So you guys would say that the phrasing isn't helping how you perceive this? How do you feel about this?

  15. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    This is heavily dependent on subsequent actions. Within the context of the story as it currently stands, the mutants of Krakoa have theoretically reached "the promised land" after horror after horror outside of Krakoa. A degree of arrogance and elitism is actually a very human reaction. In their minds they did just accomplish something great and they would be weary of more of the same from humanity. It becomes a question of what they do and if such talk continues. Context is hugely important here, not just what did they say but what happened that caused them to say it. humans experimenting on mutant children, the deaths of the Orchis team preventing Nimrod.
    That does strike me as a bit hypocritical though, considering they're supposed to be 'above it all'? I'm also wondering if there doesn't seem to be any incentive for such talk not to continue? Or if it'll begin to 'evolve' in a way in reactions to events?

    I'm not seeing it actually coming to an end, is what I'm saying. That's a worrying prospect, you see, given the lack of compassion it often affords? It feels very black and white?

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