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  1. #136
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So you don't think this feels a bit too impersonal an approach? You're confident that they can buy love and acceptance in this matter, genuinely speaking, not just politically?
    The X-Men and mutants as a whole aren't buying love, they are buying sovereignty which are two very different things. We knew from pretty much the first line that Xavier isn't interested in complete integration right now as he is acceptance. The whole point of HoX was to show Xavier his dream won't work and it's time to try something new and bold. That informs not only character decision but the readers lens on the actions being taken in the book. The mutants no longer are turning the other cheek, they are standing up for themselves and I'm all about that life. In my personal life I am very much about second chances but after that bridges are burned. The X-Men have given humanity way more chances than they deserve to accept them as simply people so now it's time to make them accept them.

    Also, may I ask why you feel this? Because, see, this is something I really struggle with and I'm sure other readers do too: because of such missing information I find it very hard to truly trust these characters, especially Prof, Magneto and Moira.
    I don't need it because I simply don't. I don't think this is anything technical that absolutely has to be done. Hickman chose the beginning of his story, which we are still very very much in, and that is his decision to make. Editorial okay'd it, the fans loved it, I love it. It is as simple as that. I don't expect every one to agree with me, and yes I can admit that if they did a one shot that answered these questions I would certainly buy them, but the story as presented so far has been massively entertaining for me.

    Let me say this, the scene Hickman wrote in HoX #4 with Kurt and Logan making the big sacrifice is one of the most emotional and perfectly crafted scenes I've read in any form of literature. Kurt and Logan's conversation was so perfect that I can't even find the words to describe it. Those few pages sealed the deal for me, I'm all in on the Hickman era. Will there be bumps and bruises along the way I would almost guarantee that there will be but he has earned my trust. I say this knowing when I read that scene that Logan and Kurt weren't really dead, even knowing that it still hit home for me. To me the X-Men have earned this, they are owed this level of arrogance and domination.
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  2. #137
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    Krakoa is a silly, cornball plot device from giant sized X-men to bring in the "New X-men" in Giant sized X-men (1975). It was silly to me as a child, but kinda fun/scary as a low grade horror movie monster. So, as a concept, I can accept it's place in the canon & maybe see it in What If? or alternate timelines...sparingly. Len Wein's (much) lesser version of Godzilla, made to further a plot.

    I HATE the reboots attached to it (Deadly Genesis) and it's spawn or whatever. As a pet or friendly monster it is the absolute worst. This Hickman garbage of late can only be salvaged by Krakoa devouring mutant kind & rebooting again/forgetting this garbage ever was published.

    Anyway, dredging up cornball pap from 30-40 years prior simply because it cannot be forgotten due a chance placement at a pivotal point in history is not a good idea.

  3. #138

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    I still don't understand how Krakoa is so pivotal to this Hickman era, when the last I recall, the X-Men threw it into space(and I never understood the Kid Krakoa thing). Also, didn't it gain sentience in the WW2 era nuclear testing? How is it thousands of years old with this elaborate magical history?
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  4. #139
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    No, not at all; but you can't expect people not to wonder what the strict laws mean for families who're close. Take the Guthries for example; in X-Force, Paige is clearly unhappy at the idea of living in such a detached manner from her's. Besides; if Krakoa truly is a paradise, would it be so strange for those who do have good relationships with some humans to want to share it with them, too? And what if they do want their human families to come live with them? Or human lovers; these are all questions the narrative invites and that we, as readers, do worry about.

    And there's the thing: these family members aren't necessarily terrorists, nor do they pose any threat to mutant kind beyond just being born human.
    What's in blue...

    Since questions are coming up, ask yourself if there are some obvious question you haven't asked.

    What's in green...

    "We" is an overstatement. I know that I am not included in that "We".

  5. #140
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    As most already said:

    I like that the mutants are happy. That for once they're on the winning side(even if it's not gonna last forever). That they're bringing back all the mutants that died from genocide. That now they can just bring everyone back without having to make an elaborate story for every single death and resurrection.

    I hate the damn extinction plots. Even without Krakoa, I always prefered the X-Men when they were more similar to real life minorities, as in that they're discriminated and outcast but not straight up hunted down and exterminated. The last two decades brought us E for Extinction, M Day, Death of X and then... Whatever was happening on Rosenberg's run. No one can take that shit anymore. When you're actually emotionally invested in these characters and their struggle and relate to it, it's just straight up revolting and draining.

    I dislike that the dream of coexisting seems to be dead. I wish there was a better way to achieve victory than just living somewhere else away from humans.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 01-10-2020 at 03:25 AM.

  6. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    The X-Men and mutants as a whole aren't buying love, they are buying sovereignty which are two very different things. We knew from pretty much the first line that Xavier isn't interested in complete integration right now as he is acceptance. The whole point of HoX was to show Xavier his dream won't work and it's time to try something new and bold. That informs not only character decision but the readers lens on the actions being taken in the book. The mutants no longer are turning the other cheek, they are standing up for themselves and I'm all about that life. In my personal life I am very much about second chances but after that bridges are burned. The X-Men have given humanity way more chances than they deserve to accept them as simply people so now it's time to make them accept them.



    I don't need it because I simply don't. I don't think this is anything technical that absolutely has to be done. Hickman chose the beginning of his story, which we are still very very much in, and that is his decision to make. Editorial okay'd it, the fans loved it, I love it. It is as simple as that. I don't expect every one to agree with me, and yes I can admit that if they did a one shot that answered these questions I would certainly buy them, but the story as presented so far has been massively entertaining for me.

    Let me say this, the scene Hickman wrote in HoX #4 with Kurt and Logan making the big sacrifice is one of the most emotional and perfectly crafted scenes I've read in any form of literature. Kurt and Logan's conversation was so perfect that I can't even find the words to describe it. Those few pages sealed the deal for me, I'm all in on the Hickman era. Will there be bumps and bruises along the way I would almost guarantee that there will be but he has earned my trust. I say this knowing when I read that scene that Logan and Kurt weren't really dead, even knowing that it still hit home for me. To me the X-Men have earned this, they are owed this level of arrogance and domination.
    Interesting; so you'd say you were a rather emotionally driven reader? You do empathise with the characters and, as such, still hear their voices as clearly as you had in any other run? What about in the context of Moira's ret-con? Does that not act as a contradiction, at all, to past narratives? Does it paint anything they may have stood for as a little bit false for you, or are you able to set it aside for the sake of the 'greater' cause? Also, do you really believe that Xavier's dream was hopeless or foolish, as some have pointed out? Do you, as a reader, believe that this methodology and result is the only way forward either in narrative or in real life? And if I may ask, how do those two views contradict at all if not?

    Additionally, though I do agree with you in regards to humanity's leaders; would you say this attitude of arrogance and domination should extend to individual humans? What I mean by that, of course, is past friends, family members, allies and such. If it were shown that those bridges really were burned all the way through without ever getting a proper scene dedicated to it, would you be satisfied? If so, why?

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    What's in blue...

    Since questions are coming up, ask yourself if there are some obvious question you haven't asked.

    What's in green...

    "We" is an overstatement. I know that I am not included in that "We".
    May I ask why?

  8. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post
    Krakoa is a silly, cornball plot device from giant sized X-men to bring in the "New X-men" in Giant sized X-men (1975). It was silly to me as a child, but kinda fun/scary as a low grade horror movie monster. So, as a concept, I can accept it's place in the canon & maybe see it in What If? or alternate timelines...sparingly. Len Wein's (much) lesser version of Godzilla, made to further a plot.

    I HATE the reboots attached to it (Deadly Genesis) and it's spawn or whatever. As a pet or friendly monster it is the absolute worst. This Hickman garbage of late can only be salvaged by Krakoa devouring mutant kind & rebooting again/forgetting this garbage ever was published.

    Anyway, dredging up cornball pap from 30-40 years prior simply because it cannot be forgotten due a chance placement at a pivotal point in history is not a good idea.
    So you'd say you're not convinced with Hickman's premise? Does his writing or execution have anything to do with that?

  9. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    As most already said:

    I like that the mutants are happy. That for once they're on the winning side(even if it's not gonna last forever). That they're bringing back all the mutants that died from genocide. That now they can just bring everyone back without having to make an elaborate story for every single death and resurrection.

    I hate the damn extinction plots. Even without Krakoa, I always prefered the X-Men when they were more similar to real life minorities, as in that they're discriminated and outcast but not straight up hunted down and exterminated. The last two decades brought us E for Extinction, M Day, Death of X and then... Whatever was happening on Rosenberg's run. No one can take that shit anymore. When you're actually emotionally invested in these characters and their struggle and relate to it, it's just straight up revolting and draining.

    I dislike that the dream of coexisting seems to be dead. I wish there was a better way to achieve victory than just living somewhere else away from humans.
    I dislike this too and I think maybe we could do with elaborating on that for everyone's benefit:

    What bothers you about it? And how does your view of the X-Men change now that, as was pointed out in X-Force, they're technically part of society's "1%"? Would you still consider them a minority? How would that impact your reading?

  10. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    They are being attacked, but these are relatively skirmishes, rather than there being an overarching existential crisis.

    It's gonna depend on how they want to play it from writer to writer and situation to situation. I feel like right now is a good spot where there can be stories of mutants encountering humans and being adored and then in the next couple of issues, meeting some humans that picket them like the old days.

    The board is very hyped about the response to Krakoa from other readers, more than the idea itself. That creates reactions that are a wee bit outsized. I don't think it has been established that mutants can't be anywhere outside Krakoa. In fact, Cap'n Kate and crew just hit up a night-club not too long ago.

    Once we get some light shone on the idea that mutants are still about protecting everyone, the more culty vibe will even out, in the stories and on the board. At least I think they will get back to protecting people.

    I think we are in a time where most hero fiction consumers want their heroes to try to make the world better for more than just themselves. We'll see that in the X-Men too, once the world is built out.
    So you have hope that classic feelings are still going to be present in this new era? But can I ask, based on the board's broad view of humanity, it seems strange to think that any humans would want to adore them aside from outside some of the cults we've seen: would you say you're the type of reader who still believes that there can be normal, friendly interactions between mutants and humans? If so, what makes you think that?

    Additionally (because I am actually struggling a bit with this myself and I'd love to hear your insight) do moments like we've seen in the club in Marauders truly reflect that classic vibe of interaction? Or do you think it's possible for a mutant to be able to simply make use of a human's space, service and even presence without necessarily thinking much of them? (Apologies, by the way, I know it's a hard question, but any insight would be appreciated!)

  11. #146
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    The X-Men and mutants as a whole aren't buying love, they are buying sovereignty which are two very different things. We knew from pretty much the first line that Xavier isn't interested in complete integration right now as he is acceptance. The whole point of HoX was to show Xavier his dream won't work and it's time to try something new and bold. That informs not only character decision but the readers lens on the actions being taken in the book. The mutants no longer are turning the other cheek, they are standing up for themselves and I'm all about that life. In my personal life I am very much about second chances but after that bridges are burned. The X-Men have given humanity way more chances than they deserve to accept them as simply people so now it's time to make them accept them.



    I don't need it because I simply don't. I don't think this is anything technical that absolutely has to be done. Hickman chose the beginning of his story, which we are still very very much in, and that is his decision to make. Editorial okay'd it, the fans loved it, I love it. It is as simple as that. I don't expect every one to agree with me, and yes I can admit that if they did a one shot that answered these questions I would certainly buy them, but the story as presented so far has been massively entertaining for me.

    Let me say this, the scene Hickman wrote in HoX #4 with Kurt and Logan making the big sacrifice is one of the most emotional and perfectly crafted scenes I've read in any form of literature. Kurt and Logan's conversation was so perfect that I can't even find the words to describe it. Those few pages sealed the deal for me, I'm all in on the Hickman era. Will there be bumps and bruises along the way I would almost guarantee that there will be but he has earned my trust. I say this knowing when I read that scene that Logan and Kurt weren't really dead, even knowing that it still hit home for me. To me the X-Men have earned this, they are owed this level of arrogance and domination.
    Never in human history arrogance and domination have been considered as a good thing. Look at colonialism, empires… They were always resented for that, painful were the memories attached to these dark pages of our history.
    That their powers, their quasi-immortality lead them to be arrogant and dominant, it is rather logical.
    My criticism about Hickman, it is that he doesn't seem to have a point of view about that : is it good? is it bad?. We don't know. It just is.

  12. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Thatís not whatís happening, though. Mutants have finally realized that most institutions that they live under are horrifically anti-mutant. Does that mean humans arenít holding pro-mutant rallies somewhere? No, and the Krakoans clearly know that as they still hold human allies and have connections with the outside world but whatís the use of putting yourself in a hostile environment in order to sustain said relationships. With a system that demands protection, mutants are now able to live under a society where individuality and difference is celebrated instead of punished. And no one thinks the cults are ďa good thingĒ but itís a measure of just how much things have changed from ďeverybody hates mutants!!!Ē that the Decimation and previous eras capitalized on.
    So, you truly believe that Moira's masquerade as a human doesn't somehow falsify the X-Men's original message or world-view? You see it just as being just as complex and nuanced now as it was back then? May I ask why? You also don't believe that the X-Men moving away and officially relinquishing space to the bigoted humans gives them any more power than they might have already had/felt? Again; please may I ask why?

    It's an interesting thought, though, when we consider the idea of individuality and difference. Yes, of course, when it comes to power-set every mutant is unique; but any society has a set of...unwritten rules and expectations. Do you believe that anyone who would go against the grain more overtly than, say, in Fallen Angels would be truly accepted? Also, might I ask, despite the nature of them; how would you say that the mutant cults seen now reflect a difference in the pro-mutant rallies we saw in era's before? Is the level of devotion somehow different to you as a reader? Is it the intensity of how 'dedicated' they seem that makes this a more sincere push forward in acceptance or the fact that it's just a different turn of events?

  13. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Never in human history arrogance and domination have been considered as a good thing. Look at colonialism, empires… They were always resented for that, painful were the memories attached to these dark pages of our history.
    That their powers, their quasi-immortality lead them to be arrogant and dominant, it is rather logical.
    My criticism about Hickman, it is that he doesn't seem to have a point of view about that : is it good? is it bad?. We don't know. It just is.
    Which is another interesting question, I find: Do you think the X-Men come across as hypocritical based on how, in real life, we don't accept such approaches or measures? Why do you think other readers view that differently?

    Conversely, to anyone who wants to answer: Why is it different? Please, for the benefit of those (like myself) who are struggling to understand?

  14. #149
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I dislike this too and I think maybe we could do with elaborating on that for everyone's benefit:

    What bothers you about it? And how does your view of the X-Men change now that, as was pointed out in X-Force, they're technically part of society's "1%"? Would you still consider them a minority? How would that impact your reading?
    I mostly just find it sad. The current narrative seems to go with the idea that there's just no way mutants will ever be accepted by others and live in the same place as them. I don't exactly blame Hickman for it, because Marvel never allowed mutants' situation to get any better. And at this point, it wouldn't make any sense for them to suddenly be less hated and persecuted, and without the resurrections there wouldn't even be that much of them in the first place.

    But it's just... Wow, it was really hopeless after all? It's a depressing message.

  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I think its a bit disingenuous. They could have just as easily used the time skip to say that the events of Uncanny caused sympathy for mutants to spike after how dire things were, combined with the renewed resolve of the Age of X-man people returning, and resulted in some kind of strong legislative win. If you can in media res an entire country, you can do the same for some sort of mutant rights act. There is nothing stopping Marvel from giving the X-men an actual win for once that doesn't spit in the face of everything that's happened before. Hell, they could even bring Sublime or Cassandra Nova back to justify the bizarre spike in mutant prejudice that happened in Uncanny.
    So you'd say the plot was unnecessarily convoluted in this regard? Would it perhaps have been easier to stomach if it were a complete reboot or retcon, in your opinion?

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