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  1. #166
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    But so is Shogo. He's a random human to anyone outside to those who know him. Is Jubilee compromising the rules in a similar fashion? Is she being selfish for not giving Shogo up to other humans? He is a baby, yes, and you're right, hatred of him isn't an acceptable response but someone may have problems separating him from the perpetrators responsible for their trauma. They do need therapy, but won't Shogo's presence impede that if, as you say, any random human can come to wander about Krakoa? And then, another point; you say those who want to stay with their family should 'grow up and make their own life'--what if they're only a child? And they don't want to go to Krakoa, much like any child might not want to move to a foreign boarding school? And, again, it isn't safe for them to remain at home because they and their human family will be killed? Are they being selfish? (And, why?)

    So you view Krakoa as automatically superior in its justice system, then? Even if the family were attacked on the way to Krakoa with their disabled mutant loved one? Perhaps even one who can't technically consent and 'choose'? (Again, why?)
    Shogo is the baby of a popular X-Man. He is not random. I didn’t think I needed to really differentiate, but I’m clearly talking about adults, grown up in the human world. who can think, move, and operate freely. That isn’t what Shogo is. None of these hypotheticals change that. Also why do you just drop things like “their human family will be killed” and act like that won’t be punished? The system wasn’t unfair to humans, it was unfair to mutants. The affiliation or relation to mutants doesn’t matter because at the end of the day, they’re still humans whereas mutants’ lives are never considered. Human families with mutant kids dropped them off at the Xavier Institute before and that wasn’t a problem.

    I don’t understand what their geolocation has to do with Krakoa or “superiority.”

  2. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Shogo is the baby of a popular X-Man. He is not random. I didn’t think I needed to really differentiate, but I’m clearly talking about adults, grown up in the human world. who can think, move, and operate freely. That isn’t what Shogo is. None of these hypotheticals change that. Also why do you just drop things like “their human family will be killed” and act like that won’t be punished? The system wasn’t unfair to humans, it was unfair to mutants. The affiliation or relation to mutants doesn’t matter because at the end of the day, they’re still humans whereas mutants’ lives are never considered. Human families with mutant kids dropped them off at the Xavier Institute before and that wasn’t a problem.

    I don’t understand what their geolocation has to do with Krakoa or “superiority.”
    Depends on how you view that, I suppose. I mean, let's look at real life: celebrities have kids all the time who can be regarded as indifferently or with as much reverie or vitrol as their fans deem fit. Say, for example, the newest royal baby Louie: What do you view him as? A baby, or a royal baby? Does that impact your impression of him in any manner? Is it how he's raised that's important or just what/who he is by birth? The same standards can be applied by anyone to Shogo depending on their experience or how they view Jubilee's situation in the first place. (And, of course, I'm referring to those outside of her circle of friends who do clearly love Shogo, not contesting that at all.) And, to be honest, I drop those questions because that's simply the impression that I get from what happens on these boards: Mutants are subject to harsh discrimination and the reason that their families aren't standing up for them is because it's too dangerous. Additionally, the impression that I get is, because of how biased the system is against mutants, that attackers either won't be prosecuted as harshly or the family of a mutant won't be regarded with as much urgency, because that's how I'm lead to believe the situation is right now.

    Superior in regards to its' justice system. You know, better: You have more faith in that than the human one, even in regards to dealing with humans? That is, on non-Krakoan soil, I mean?

    Also, to be clear: I asked what if the disabled mutant doesn't have the capacity (legally) to 'choose' and, as such, are being 'brought' to Krakoa. Given the resistance mutants are facing just getting to the gates, why wouldn't the family be immune from attack?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-10-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  3. #168
    Amazing Member JTFSXX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ah now see, this is an interesting position: So you're the type of reader who finds the uncertainty exciting? Why is that? Do your concerns not get in the way of your enjoyment say, in regards to favourite characters? Or are your favourites being played out well, in your opinion and, if so, how so?

    Also, why do you feel that death is an integral stake to need to preserve? Especially considering how characters tend to rise and fall like Jesus on a bungee? (Ok sorry, bad joke, but still!)

    And, because it's an important question to ask: What speaks as most hopeful to you about the Krakoan era? Where/how do you see it? Is there any way readers who might not be able to right now find a manner to identify it?
    Jesus on a bungee...lol! I believe that in these stories, as in real life, the possibility of death gives each moment more weight. I don't know if exciting is the right word...but it certainly, for me, makes each day, moment, choice, interaction, etc. more meaningful. Now obviously in the comics world death has always been...um...less than permanent for most...ut the potential is there that beloved characters might be gone, at least for a significant period of time. This resonates with me as more interesting and on some level, more true. I think that in general, this tension of gone but not really has been stewarded well by the writers of this series over the many years.

    As far as signs of hope...I'm personally into reconciliation...so I'm interested in and hopeful for a lasting reconciliation between former rivals and, in the end, between mutants and humans.

  4. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by JTFSXX View Post
    Jesus on a bungee...lol! I believe that in these stories, as in real life, the possibility of death gives each moment more weight. I don't know if exciting is the right word...but it certainly, for me, makes each day, moment, choice, interaction, etc. more meaningful. Now obviously in the comics world death has always been...um...less than permanent for most...ut the potential is there that beloved characters might be gone, at least for a significant period of time. This resonates with me as more interesting and on some level, more true. I think that in general, this tension of gone but not really has been stewarded well by the writers of this series over the many years.

    As far as signs of hope...I'm personally into reconciliation...so I'm interested in and hopeful for a lasting reconciliation between former rivals and, in the end, between mutants and humans.
    I see what you mean: Like, I've broken my ankle right now, right? It's painful and hellish and my god I'm suffering--but when I recover (and I am hell bent to)--I'll walk again, but I'll always have it in mind. I have incentive to want to avoid the trauma much like when characters resurrect from death? That's the stake, you find? You don't see that incentive anymore, especially since the trauma of death is stated to be 'taken away'?

    And this is something I'm most fascinated in: You hold that kind of hope? Can I ask, what gives you such hope? Not so much in the reconciliation between rivals because, as Excalibur is showing...that can be as easy as the writer wants, but that of mutants and humans? You see that as possible? You think humans still have incentive to want peace?

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Good:

    It allows for both Good and Evil characters to comingle and has more indepth characterization, and it's more thought provoking that way.

    Related to that, the way the writers keep speaking about "Mutants" as opposed to "XMen". It makes this feel closer to the Morrison era where we were exploring themes of "Mutant Culture" and all of that.

    There are a lot of weird sci-fi aspects and mysteries baked in.

    Just in general, all these older characters returning offers a lot of possibilities.

    Bad:

    Sense of voluntary self-segregation, or retreat from engaging with the world broadly. Feels like an admission of defeat honestly.

    Needs to explain the actual differences between this concept and the Genosha idea.

    Extremely creepy aspects are going on that could use more fleshing out so we can become adjusted to them. Unless they're intended to be offputting.

    In general I feel Hickman doesn't care about showing how we got from the end of the latest Uncanny (and other books...) to this. He's put essentially zero effort into that, which to me is a problem.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  6. #171
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ah, yes, let's be honest; poor plotted pacing has been the downfall of many a work. So you'd say you find it pretty disproportionate, especially considering what's been laid out? Do you feel it was perhaps, a rushed entry in that respect? And that makes it feel, perhaps, a bit less able for you to truly invest?
    other post put it very well how I feel
    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    In general I feel Hickman doesn't care about showing how we got from the end of the latest Uncanny (and other books...) to this. He's put essentially zero effort into that, which to me is a problem.
    It's hard invest on characters that are moved around at writers will without showing where they came

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    I still don't understand how Krakoa is so pivotal to this Hickman era, when the last I recall, the X-Men threw it into space(and I never understood the Kid Krakoa thing). Also, didn't it gain sentience in the WW2 era nuclear testing? How is it thousands of years old with this elaborate magical history?
    Yep/Agree. Yup (well, the testing is post WW2, 1946-1962, also see: Godzilla). The "magic" of ret-con? I can't stomach it, but to be fair, it was a silly monster of the moment, a plot device...and that is what it is now too. I didn't "get it" in the more whimsical Wolverine & the X-men days, but it didn't bother me then. It fit, in that style of comic. The Hickman use now, though, I now realize due your prodding, I LOATHE, as it is a BAD, CHEAP "magical" plot device/deus ex machina that is so at odds to the grim/dark hard sci fi slant the comic currently has taken on. WTF?! indeed.

    Still, judging from the comments surrounding us, the conversation is about something completely different..."Krakoa" apparently is now a stand in for the whole current X-men run/concept?

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's hard invest on characters that are moved around at writers will without showing where they came
    I've been unable to invest at all in anything of the series anymore. That saddens me, I've read the comics for decades.

    As to the whole premise, and the notions that living together is a pipe dream, "death" to those that are different embraced, "different is just superior/better, including morally by default", all of it...it's all mind poison. The X-men always were stand ins for real life outsiders & minorities of all sorts, and they can vary across time. Now, Hickman can be great, I enjoyed his FF run a fair bit indeed, but this is ANTI-X-men, and what it is saying about the real world is monstrous & horrifyingly WRONG.

    I think I said this in another post already, but while I will not read any more, if I did, I could only root for the protagonists to fail/die/be destroyed at this point. Well, or see the error of their ways, but that is set up to be impossible, in the most self righteous poisonous pap way possible. It's complete garbage, and I couldn't even find redeeming parts...it's stale, retread, & derivative crud I've seen a dozen times before as WELL AS being awful & having only caricatures & character assassinations (not a new thing, those, on X-men the last decade or 2), no characters. UGH.
    Last edited by GenghisDon; 01-10-2020 at 11:13 AM. Reason: adding more

  8. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Good:

    It allows for both Good and Evil characters to comingle and has more indepth characterization, and it's more thought provoking that way.

    Related to that, the way the writers keep speaking about "Mutants" as opposed to "XMen". It makes this feel closer to the Morrison era where we were exploring themes of "Mutant Culture" and all of that.

    There are a lot of weird sci-fi aspects and mysteries baked in.

    Just in general, all these older characters returning offers a lot of possibilities.

    Bad:

    Sense of voluntary self-segregation, or retreat from engaging with the world broadly. Feels like an admission of defeat honestly.

    Needs to explain the actual differences between this concept and the Genosha idea.

    Extremely creepy aspects are going on that could use more fleshing out so we can become adjusted to them. Unless they're intended to be offputting.

    In general I feel Hickman doesn't care about showing how we got from the end of the latest Uncanny (and other books...) to this. He's put essentially zero effort into that, which to me is a problem.
    That's interesting: How might I ask, do you view that as more thought-provoking? We've seen adversaries 'humanised' in solo's over the years, after all, given cause to care and empathise; how does this differ beyond them not acting as antagonistically? Is it because of the possibility of their world-view changing? Do you see that happening without them having to become completely different characters, in a sense?

    So, the topic of segregation or 'defeat' comes up a lot and nobody actually seems to agree on whether or not that's true. Let's discuss it a bit: why does it feel like an admission of defeat for you? Do you know why others feel the opposite? How differently do you feel about the idea of mutants only engaging with the world more broadly, or politically, as opposed to on individual levels?

    But I agree with you about Hickman and that's a topic worth delving into as well: Have you read other works by Hickman? Why do you feel this approach to be executed with little effort, or what gives you that impression? Is it from interviews with the man himself? How drastic everything happened? Lack of build-up? Lack of intent to explore pre-Krakoa ideas...? Would you say Hickman's the type to like the idea of X-men without necessarily considering the characters themselves?

  9. #174
    Amazing Member JTFSXX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I see what you mean: Like, I've broken my ankle right now, right? It's painful and hellish and my god I'm suffering--but when I recover (and I am hell bent to)--I'll walk again, but I'll always have it in mind. I have incentive to want to avoid the trauma much like when characters resurrect from death? That's the stake, you find? You don't see that incentive anymore, especially since the trauma of death is stated to be 'taken away'?

    And this is something I'm most fascinated in: You hold that kind of hope? Can I ask, what gives you such hope? Not so much in the reconciliation between rivals because, as Excalibur is showing...that can be as easy as the writer wants, but that of mutants and humans? You see that as possible? You think humans still have incentive to want peace?
    Right! Part of what makes each life so meaningful and valuable is that it is fragile. If there is always a "resurrection safety net," it just loses something for me.

    My hope is rooted in the fact that reconciliation is always POSSIBLE. It may not seem likely in the current context or based on the history and trajectory of these books, but that's why they call Xavier's vision a "dream." Sometimes dreams, however unlikely, are worth fighting and even dying for (even when there are no magic eggs). ;-)

  10. #175
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Here's another interesting question I feel might be worth addressing: How do we feel about retcons? How does that affect our enjoyment of what's being put in front of us? Especially with one so big in regards to Moira?
    Retcons is a case by case basis. Sometimes i sok and sometimes is a overkill;
    For example they created a new x-men team to die so they could demonize Xavier and broke forever (until krakoa) Scott trust on him. That isn't ok.
    With Emma was the contrary, made her a abuse victim so she could become a hero easier

    The problem with retcons that nothing is sacred and they can turn things but for some characters at will. They are better used to add things.

    Moira retcons doesn't really work, it is a lot contrived with the continuity. i'm still not sold on that.
    Some people think that Hickman saved her and made her really interesting because of these powers, I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisDon View Post

    I've been unable to invest at all in anything of the series anymore. That saddens me, I've read the comics for decades.

    As to the whole premise, and the notions that living together is a pipe dream, "death" to those that are different embraced, "different is just superior/better, including morally by default", all of it...it's all mind poison. The X-men always were stand ins for real life outsiders & minorities of all sorts, and they can vary across time. Now, Hickman can be great, I enjoyed his FF run a fair bit indeed, but this is ANTI-X-men, and what it is saying about the real world is monstrous & horrifyingly WRONG.

    I think I said this in another post already, but while I will not read any more, if I did, I could only root for the protagonists to fail/die/be destroyed at this point. Well, or see the error of their ways, but that is set up to be impossible, in the most self righteous poisonous pap way possible. It's complete garbage, and I couldn't even find redeeming parts...it's stale & retread cruf I've seen a dozen times before as WELL AS being awful & having only caricatures, no characters. UGH.
    It's really hard to invest, thi sis why I root for Hickman staying 3-5 years and krakoa fall.

    This contradict a lot of x-men story and what they mean as metaphor. It looks a lot like Israel, a minority got their land and then started to opress the palestinians.

    the automatic human=scum, mutants=better morals is very wrong and without nuance
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-10-2020 at 11:15 AM.

  11. #176
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    Retcons, properly & sparingly used, can be a valuable tool. They have been vastly overused & toxic in comics at this point in time, and used by people who shouldn't be allowed to. But that is the business today.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's really hard to invest, thi sis why I root for Hickman staying 3-5 years and krakoa fall.

    This contradict a lot of x-men story and what they mean as metaphor. It looks a lot like Israel, a minority got their land and then started to opress the palestinians.

    the automatic human=scum, mutants=better morals is very wrong and without nuance
    Yeah, I'm back after a long absence, and never posted much, so I am not sure on forum rules regarding real life, politics, etc, so I said no examples...but Israel-Palestine certainly is a fine case example, but honestly, the world is FULL of them EVERYWHERE right now.

    I suspect Hickman might have lost his mind to the propaganda spewed by the collapsing neo-liberal capitalist world order, probably Trump derangement syndrome in specific, along with millions of others. However, it's entirely possible the whole premise is going to be a rebuke to the mind poison being peddled now, a 2-3 year plan ending in complete reversal & repudiation. I've seen that too many times before already too, though, so even if that ends up begin the case...I ain't interested, especially not for another "quick" turn around re-boot of X-men.

  12. #177
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I see what you mean: the X-Men narrative really does invite a lot of projection and identification with this characters--that's part of the reason I can't let go, to be honest. In that respect, you'd say a portion of the fandom feels like they're being more lenient, though, because of how they identify and project as such? They find it easier to, perhaps, regard faceless humans as faceless humans? Keep them at a certain distance, perhaps, without considering how they fall in relation to other human-type heroes?
    It never cease to amaze how much people forgive the ones they love and forgive absolutely nothing the ones they dislike… You fall in one of these categories and don't change easily whatever you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Also, because it's a really fascinating thing: Why do you think some fans are able to see the classic characters from those old stories and hear their voices while others aren't, despite the same level of devotion from all? (Because, let's face it, that's why we're here.)
    I'm unable to answer to this question. I only read Claremont's X-men during my childhood and it left in me a deep impression. The X-men don't have many faces, many voices for me… They were presented as heroes and heroes have strong beliefs and these beliefs don't change depending on circumstances. They were just imperfect enough to feel human.
    The X-men movies have been inspired by Claremont's run, too…

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And that's another point that's important to consider: What kinds of events influence our interpretation of the text?

    Do you believe there's only one 'correct' context to read these stories in? As in, from what we see on page, or is it important to draw from the past narratives and consider their contradictions? And even why it's being contradicted as such?
    They were so many X-men stories, X-men authors since the beginning… Ok, actually, I don't understand your question but please, bear in mind that I only read the previews and the first HOX (and the extracts¬…). It's enough for me to "not feel at home", but I don't see the whole picture.

    Now, I have a question for you: are you preparing a sociological survey about X-men readers?

  13. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    other post put it very well how I feel


    It's hard invest on characters that are moved around at writers will without showing where they came
    So it makes the characters feel insincere, you'd say? Or, at least the situation they've been put in?

  14. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It never cease to amaze how much people forgive the ones they love and forgive absolutely nothing the ones they dislike¬… You fall in one of these categories and don't change easily whatever you.
    (Wait, me personally or in the general sense?)

    Either way; how does that make you feel? Do you find yourself thinking about it when reading, at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I'm unable to answer to this question. I only read Claremont's X-men during my childhood and it left in me a deep impression. The X-men don't have many faces, many voices to me¬… They were presented as heroes and heroes have strong beliefs and these beliefs don't change depending on circumstances. They were just imperfect enough to feel human.
    The X-men movies have been inspired by Claremont's run, too¬…

    They were so many X-men stories, X-men authors since the beginning¬… Ok, actually, I don't understand your question but please, bear in mind that I only read the previews and the first HOX (and the extracts¬…). It's enough for me to "not feel at home", but I don't see the whole picture.
    But clearly there's a difference in the impressions you've been left with, if you don't mind me saying? Between childhood reading and a current, more present impression...Claremont seems to have left more of an impact? Do you think the approach/execution has anything to do with that, or...?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Now, I have a question for you: are you preparing a sociological survey about X-men readers?
    Hahaha! Well, no, not quite that far: I'm just trying to generate a bit of empathy between user's here. We need to see where each other are coming from, I feel like, to try and mitigate some of the tensions around here, ya know?

    I mean, no clue if it'll work but, hey, can't say we didn't try!

  15. #180

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    i dislike the lack of Shortpack.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

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