What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[JB]

I like the new-ness of it all. I like this new, unexplored land and how the mutants can create their own culture, traditions, and ways of life. It feels like they have more choices on how to live now.

I'm also excited to see what else comes from Krakoa and what kind of additional international commerce may come of it. I'm a big fan of the whole thing.

[Zelena]

(Wait, me personally or in the general sense?)

Either way; how does that make you feel? Do you find yourself thinking about it when reading, at all?

In the general sense. But it applies on the forum, too. So, the forum is not an exception.

But clearly there's a difference in the impressions you've been left with, if you don't mind me saying? Between childhood reading and a current, more present impression...Claremont seems to have left more of an impact? Do you think the approach/execution has anything to do with that, or...?

Well, I blame Claremont on that: his run was very emotional, full of drama and feelings, and Byrne's drawings were more than good for me. I can't not remember.
Emotions are a 'glue' for memory…

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Yep/Agree. Yup (well, the testing is post WW2, 1946-1962, also see: Godzilla). The "magic" of ret-con? I can't stomach it, but to be fair, it was a silly monster of the moment, a plot device...and that is what it is now too. I didn't "get it" in the more whimsical Wolverine & the X-men days, but it didn't bother me then. It fit, in that style of comic. The Hickman use now, though, I now realize due your prodding, I LOATHE, as it is a BAD, CHEAP "magical" plot device/deus ex machina that is so at odds to the grim/dark hard sci fi slant the comic currently has taken on. WTF?! indeed.

(Hahah, glad I could help!! Mission successful!!)

So let's hear a bit more about your complaints! Why do you loathe it and find it cheap? Is it because it feels too easy? Or, maybe, because it contradicts the narrative a bit more than it adds, or...? Do you feel differently about Moira, looking back?

Still, judging from the comments surrounding us, the conversation is about something completely different..."Krakoa" apparently is now a stand in for the whole current X-men run/concept?

And, yes, don't worry; I sort of used Krakoa as a short hand to just get the conversation rolling. An anchor point, if that makes sense?



I've been unable to invest at all in anything of the series anymore. That saddens me, I've read the comics for decades.

As to the whole premise, and the notions that living together is a pipe dream, "death" to those that are different embraced, "different is just superior/better, including morally by default", all of it...it's all mind poison. The X-men always were stand ins for real life outsiders & minorities of all sorts, and they can vary across time. Now, Hickman can be great, I enjoyed his FF run a fair bit indeed, but this is ANTI-X-men, and what it is saying about the real world is monstrous & horrifyingly WRONG.

I think I said this in another post already, but while I will not read any more, if I did, I could only root for the protagonists to fail/die/be destroyed at this point. Well, or see the error of their ways, but that is set up to be impossible, in the most self righteous poisonous pap way possible. It's complete garbage, and I couldn't even find redeeming parts...it's stale, retread, & derivative crud I've seen a dozen times before as WELL AS being awful & having only caricatures & character assassinations (not a new thing, those, on X-men the last decade or 2), no characters. UGH.

Now I definitely want to hear a bit more about this if it's ok?

What frustrates you about this? Is it because of how harshly it contradicts the X-Men's classic core values? Or, maybe, because you feel a bit betrayed or lied to, in that respect? Do you feel it renders all past storylines basically meaningless?

How does this change the X-men's narrative as a stand-in for minorities and outsiders, in your opinion?

And, I'm especially curious about this: You've enjoyed Hickman's past work? If you don't mind, I'd love to hear a bit more about this--what about his FF run worked better for you than in his X-Men run as we see it? Was the execution so different, or...? Because I've seen from fans of his past work a fair bit of excitement and claims of how we should trust him because of his past reputation? This doesn't ring true for you?

And, if I'm allowed to pry a bit more; how does this impact your view of the real world? Because, speaking from my own experiences, I actually use comics in a manner to cope with and make sense of my own real-world situations, to even understand topics I might not otherwise if I can--this is part of why I'm not actually enjoying the run too. Is it similar for you, or...?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Well, I blame Claremont on that: his run was very emotional, full of drama and feelings, and Byrne's drawings were more than good for me. I can't not remember.
Emotions are a 'glue' for memory…

Ah, I understand that completely. And you're right; the emotions you felt are what glues a memory for you; Claremont left you feeling something profound enough to recall a rather impactful memory, that's amazing really! But I'm with you; I actually feel very spoiled having experienced his character work and how well everyone seemed to bounce off of each other. In fact, I always found the plot was best communicated through the characters and how they felt?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I like the new-ness of it all. I like this new, unexplored land and how the mutants can create their own culture, traditions, and ways of life. It feels like they have more choices on how to live now.

I'm also excited to see what else comes from Krakoa and what kind of additional international commerce may come of it. I'm a big fan of the whole thing.

That's cool: might I ask what makes you feel that way?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Yeah, I'm back after a long absence, and never posted much, so I am not sure on forum rules regarding real life, politics, etc, so I said no examples...but Israel-Palestine certainly is a fine case example, but honestly, the world is FULL of them EVERYWHERE right now.

I suspect Hickman might have lost his mind to the propaganda spewed by the collapsing neo-liberal capitalist world order, probably Trump derangement syndrome in specific, along with millions of others. However, it's entirely possible the whole premise is going to be a rebuke to the mind poison being peddled now, a 2-3 year plan ending in complete reversal & repudiation. I've seen that too many times before already too, though, so even if that ends up begin the case...I ain't interested, especially not for another "quick" turn around re-boot of X-men.

Clearly this run has left a rather sour taste in your mouth; might I pry a bit and ask what about it gets under your skin? What about the real-world politics do you see reflected or not reflected and, as such, why does it annoy you?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Retcons is a case by case basis. Sometimes i sok and sometimes is a overkill;
For example they created a new x-men team to die so they could demonize Xavier and broke forever (until krakoa) Scott trust on him. That isn't ok.
With Emma was the contrary, made her a abuse victim so she could become a hero easier

The problem with retcons that nothing is sacred and they can turn things but for some characters at will. They are better used to add things.

Moira retcons doesn't really work, it is a lot contrived with the continuity. i'm still not sold on that.
Some people think that Hickman saved her and made her really interesting because of these powers, I don't think so.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that to be honest; I think ret-cons are a bit too easy to rely on, especially when the mission statement is meant to be about the new. I'm not sure actively contradicting the old, or demonising it, as you say is the way to go.

Would you say you feel Xavier might have been a bullied character, then, within Hickman's new context?

How do you view Moira now in light of all this change? Do you feel we've lost an important aspect of the mutant's overall conversation? Like, in losing a human ally or having her a mutant all along, it might over-simplify matters, in a sense?

Personally...I think she was much more heroic without powers. She didn't need to be a mutant to stand up for them, she believed in what she believed and she was going to fight tooth and nail for it. How do you view her now?

[loke13]

I like that it feels this Krakoa era just feels so fresh and exciting HoX/PoX really shook up the X-Universe in a really big way to me after feeling a intense feeling of stagnation infecting the titles.

I love that mutants are in this new position where they finally feel like their taking control of their own agency. I'm excited with this inclusion of villains being on Krakao and excited to see what delicious drama erupts from that and the many plot threads that Hickman has laid out.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

My hope is rooted in the fact that reconciliation is always POSSIBLE. It may not seem likely in the current context or based on the history and trajectory of these books, but that's why they call Xavier's vision a "dream." Sometimes dreams, however unlikely, are worth fighting and even dying for (even when there are no magic eggs). ;-)

Oh Wow, that's...actually that's the most uplifting thing I've heard in a while. I...actually really do think I needed to hear that (thank you for that, actually!)

But that's also so interesting: You don't believe that Xavier's dream is truly dead? Nor that it should be? I've seen it touted about here that it was actually dangerous in how idealistic it was, but you don't see it that way?

In that respect, you don't resent Hickman declaring it dead or overly-emphasising that it's a 'dream'? As if, insinuating, that it's impossible to reach?

[JB]

That's cool: might I ask what makes you feel that way?

I've always been a fan of the new. New experiences, new locations, new people that I meet. Just like I've been enjoying reading what posters are saying in this thread. Feels fresh!

I love most of the art for this new era and I like how most of the characters sound. But most of all I like the intent behind it all. The X-Office went big for our mutants. Whether readers are enjoying it or not, I feel they are trying to push this mutant family hard with all the new books, how connected they all are, and the constant announcements of new things coming up. To me, the X-Men feel at the forefront of Marvel again and I appreciate that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I've always been a fan of the new. New experiences, new locations, new people that I meet. Just like I've been enjoying reading what posters are saying in this thread. Feels fresh!

I love most of the art for this new era and I like how most of the characters sound. But most of all I like the intent behind it all. The X-Office went big for our mutants. Whether readers are enjoying it or not, I feel they are trying to push this mutant family hard with all the new books, how connected they all are, and the constant announcements of new things coming up. To me, the X-Men feel at the forefront of Marvel again and I appreciate that.

Can I ask: what about how characters sound do you like? Some (including myself) find it jarring, almost robotic? What makes it stick out differently to you?

[pkingdom]

I was going to quote-reply but there were too many. I wanted to say something about the use of the mutant villains.

Someone said mutants got tired of turning the other cheek to humans, and another said something about co-mingling with the villains. The co-mingling doesn't really seem to be happening? When the villains show up, they're usually just in charge, or are manipulating the one-time heroic characters. And it feels off to say mutants got tired of turning the other cheek to humans as a whole when they respond by turning the other cheek to mutants as a whole.

For most of the extinction events, there were small groups of people responsible. Sometimes single individuals like Cassandra Nova or the Scarlet Witch. Blaming all of humanity feels like a stretch. And what about the mutants who tried the same thing? Several mutants have attempted genocide of the human race several times. And the heroes are just ok with that now because times are rough? Apocalypse killed so many people and ended so many civilizations, and that's a joke now? Emma blew up 2 Inhuman cities with the Sentinels, and there's never been anything close to a consequence for her.

Essentially, all of humanity is being blamed for the attempted genocides against mutants. But its wrong to blame all of mutantkind for the attempted genocides against humankind. Also, a human killing a mutant is a tragedy. But a mutant killing a human isn't worth a fuss, and certainly not worth losing the help of that mutant.

Yes there's a lot of nuance in individual situations. But asking me take crimes against mutants seriously when Apocalypse, Mystique and Emma in charge is laughable.

[KurtW95]

What I like is that it brings back characters I want back. What I don’t like is that it’s a cultish supremacist ethnostate where the supposed heroes have adopted the mentality of the villains.

[spirit2011]

I agree with that to be honest; I think ret-cons are a bit too easy to rely on, especially when the mission statement is meant to be about the new. I'm not sure actively contradicting the old, or demonising it, as you say is the way to go.

Would you say you feel Xavier might have been a bullied character, then, within Hickman's new context?

How do you view Moira now in light of all this change? Do you feel we've lost an important aspect of the mutant's overall conversation? Like, in losing a human ally or having her a mutant all along, it might over-simplify matters, in a sense?

Personally...I think she was much more heroic without powers. She didn't need to be a mutant to stand up for them, she believed in what she believed and she was going to fight tooth and nail for it. How do you view her now?

"Would you say you feel Xavier might have been a bullied character, then, within Hickman's new context? "
I don't understand wha tu mean here

Moira doesn't look good for me. She schemed behind everyone backs to get what she wanted.

I think part of the fandom have to appreciate more what non heroes/mutants can do. I think Moira being human was a different point of view an dnow that is completely gone.
Now we get that she is so smart because she still get her previous life knowledge

For most of the extinction events, there were small groups of people responsible. Sometimes single individuals like Cassandra Nova or the Scarlet Witch. Blaming all of humanity feels like a stretch.

these two were the biggest genocide and game changers, humans were not responsible

[Wolverine12]

Interesting; so you'd say you were a rather emotionally driven reader? You do empathise with the characters and, as such, still hear their voices as clearly as you had in any other run? What about in the context of Moira's ret-con? Does that not act as a contradiction, at all, to past narratives? Does it paint anything they may have stood for as a little bit false for you, or are you able to set it aside for the sake of the 'greater' cause? Also, do you really believe that Xavier's dream was hopeless or foolish, as some have pointed out? Do you, as a reader, believe that this methodology and result is the only way forward either in narrative or in real life? And if I may ask, how do those two views contradict at all if not?

Additionally, though I do agree with you in regards to humanity's leaders; would you say this attitude of arrogance and domination should extend to individual humans? What I mean by that, of course, is past friends, family members, allies and such. If it were shown that those bridges really were burned all the way through without ever getting a proper scene dedicated to it, would you be satisfied? If so, why?

I definitely wouldn't say I am an emotionally driven reader, I was using that specific scene to explain why I'm all in on Hickman despite any perceived flaws to this run. I value a good entertaing story above pretty much everything else. I think the voices of the characters are pretty much spot on across the board, the one exception I would make is Gambit in Excalibur, I understand his concern for Rogue, but he is a man of action usually, as of late he is just complaining.

I also have no issue with the Moira ret-con. I say this because it is a ret-con, by definition it is changing continuity. The way Hickman did it however still allows for most of the stuff that happened in the past to "count" it just counts in one of Moira's previous lives. I don't get too terribly tied up in continuity, I will always enjoy a good story even if it contradicts what came before it. I personally think you have to be able to do this to enjoy comics from the big 2 because nothing will ever line up perfectly.

In regards to Xavier's dream being hopeless or foolish, I don't think it was either of those, I think it is extremely noble. Do I think it is feasible? I suppose that answer is no, but that's only because the writers have always chosen that path. As for the current methodology the mutants are using as I said before I think it is perfectly acceptable. Of course it's not the only way forward, but it is the story that is in front of us so that is what we get.

The attitude of arrogance and domination is deserved in a general sense. I think the people that are arguing that the mutants think it's "us vs them" are presenting a straw man argument. It's simply not true in any sense. We've specifically seen the mutants working with human allies multiple times already and it is extremely early in the run. Elizabeth Braddock is answering to the Queen of England, the Marauders are working with humans to deliver their goods, the X-Men had a summit with leaders of the free world, X-Force has shown humans working with and for the mutants. The arrogance and dominance only extend to those that oppose the mutants having the right to exist which isn't everyone. I don't think that humanity has completely burned its bridges with mutants, but I do think the mutants are done waiting around for simple human rights. It's not an all or nothing scenario, it never has been. Maybe in the future it will come to that but as of now that simply isn't the case.