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  1. #241
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    And I repeat, comic book death being a joke doesn't mean making it completely pointless in-story makes it better. When your story is about survival, making your heroes unkillable just make the entire thing feel pointless.
    And it's your right to feel how you feel. I don't see it as pointless, I see it as a new structure to be played with by the writers. In-story, I think it's noble that the mutants want to resurrect all the ones they lost.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  2. #242
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    And I repeat, comic book death being a joke doesn't mean making it completely pointless in-story makes it better. When your story is about survival, making your heroes unkillable just make the entire thing feel pointless.
    Except the story in the Krakoan era isn't about survival, its about moving past just surviving, its about mutants thriving.

    Hickman on comic deaths and the actual point of DoX...
    It’s probably the second worse thing we do after breaking things for dramatic, and not story, reasons.
    (That last bit is why one of our rules for the X-Office is be additive, not destructive. Don’t just break things, build them.)

  3. #243
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    And it's your right to feel how you feel. I don't see it as pointless, I see it as a new structure to be played with by the writers. In-story, I think it's noble that the mutants want to resurrect all the ones they lost.
    I actually would have been OK with that. That could be a good story, seeing them set out to try to bring back their loved ones, maybe not the entirety of Genosha though. Having it just be dumped on us and using a method that feels so....off (to me at least) is my problem. That and the method sticking around.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I actually would have been OK with that. That could be a good story, seeing them set out to try to bring back their loved ones, maybe not the entirety of Genosha though. Having it just be dumped on us and using a method that feels so....off (to me at least) is my problem. That and the method sticking around.
    This is big for me. Use it as the initial plot to bring back all or most of the mutants fine. But, it needed to be limited in terms of use somehow like one time only to balance it out. Although in story they have mentioned worry themselves that the Resurrection process might not take. I know Mauraders mentioned it but only because Kitty hasn't been able to use the portals.

  5. #245
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Except the story in the Krakoan era isn't about survival, its about moving past just surviving, its about mutants thriving.

    Hickman on comic deaths and the actual point of DoX...
    The things Hickman says in interviews don't always come across when authors are actually writing the series. But that is totally up to interpretation. I'm not seeing them be particularly additive. And thriving vs. surviving is just getting back to the 'are they hiding from the world on Krakoa' and 'are things actually getting better for mutants' discussion.

  6. #246
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    The things Hickman says in interviews don't always come across when authors are actually writing the series. But that is totally up to interpretation. I'm not seeing them be particularly additive. And thriving vs. surviving is just getting back to the 'are they hiding from the world on Krakoa' and 'are things actually getting better for mutants' discussion.
    Well we did see the "Mercs" data page tell us that global hostilities are softening and nations are having to downsize their militaries a bit. We're still in the very early stages and Hickman thinks 8574 years ahead.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    Except the story in the Krakoan era isn't about survival, its about moving past just surviving, its about mutants thriving.

    Hickman on comic deaths and the actual point of DoX...
    Considering that Moira is the lynchpin of the new status quo and Krakoa came about because of mutant extinction in her past lives I thought Krakoa was very much about survival. In fact the creation of Krakoa is pitched as Moira's last attempt with Xavier and Magneto to stave off mutant extinction. Mutants cannot thrive if they don't first survive. And despite their current unity and forward momentum that survival is very much up in the air, considered all the forces arrayed against them. Their victory and inheritance of the earth is not inevitable.

  8. #248
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Well we did see the "Mercs" data page tell us that global hostilities are softening and nations are having to downsize their militaries a bit. We're still in the very early stages and Hickman thinks 8574 years ahead.
    That same data page suggests they are backing off fighting each other in order to build up to fight Krakoa. So we don't really know.

    Also 'obligatory complaint about data pages' yada yada

  9. #249
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That same data page suggests they are backing off fighting each other in order to build up to fight Krakoa. So we don't really know.
    Yes but I'm an optimist :-)
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  10. #250
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    And I repeat, comic book death being a joke doesn't mean making it completely pointless in-story makes it better. When your story is about survival, making your heroes unkillable just make the entire thing feel pointless.
    I thought thi s was a radical solution to the problem of killing characters a lot.
    tha ti snot how i owuld solve the problem. now everyone can get killed and brought back to life 1 issue later. Meh
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-12-2020 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #251
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Considering that Moira is the lynchpin of the new status quo and Krakoa came about because of mutant extinction in her past lives I thought Krakoa was very much about survival. In fact the creation of Krakoa is pitched as Moira's last attempt with Xavier and Magneto to stave off mutant extinction. Mutants cannot thrive if they don't first survive. And despite their current unity and forward momentum that survival is very much up in the air, considered all the forces arrayed against them. Their victory and inheritance of the earth is not inevitable.
    You're not wrong and I'll probably screw up the explanation, so apologies in advance if I'm not clear describing this. What we have here is a bit of a nuance issue, survival is a key element of the Hickman's run but it's not the point of the it. In a survival story the overriding concern is meeting the basic needs and beating the odds to stay alive, usually a case of protagonist vs. environment. For example, and I apologize for dredging this crap story back up, but the inhuman terrigin cloud was a survival plot. To add a little more context, simply staying alive is the goal of a survival story. Another type of survival story is what is more typical of horror stories, surviving at any cost against a murderous force. That's closer to DoX but still not right because that murderous force doesn't exist yet.

    I don't think that survival story tag applies here, at least not yet. If it did then I think "survival story" becomes so broad as to include any type of story where death is a potential outcome. In Krakoa, survival isn't enough, its also about a measure of acceptance by those who don't want, its about recognizing civil rights, slavery and self-determination. Moira, Magneto and Xavier are struggling to prevent a war with humanity and the developing machine AI's that leads to slavery and extermination. Its not a case of protagonists vs. environment, it becomes protagonist vs. antagonists.

    Going back to what prompted this discussion pkingdom made the assertion that this was a survival story and the resurrection protocols renders the basic plot pointless. I was pointing out that DoX is about a whole lot more than just staying alive
    Last edited by Kisinith; 01-12-2020 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #252
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Xavier having personal ownership of Krakoa's finances sounds like too much for one person to me.

  13. #253
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Xavier having personal ownership of Krakoa's finances sounds like too much for one person to me.
    He doesn't, technically as far as we've seen the Hellfire co. controls the nations finances and the heads of it all sit on the quiet council. Xavier's personal fortune before Krakoa, which has been revealed to be way larger than anyone thought or knew, has been rolled into developing Krakoa (basically he bankrolled setting everything up). The products of and Krakoa itself, are removed from personal ownership as per the 1st meeting of the quiet council.

  14. #254
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    He doesn't, technically as far as we've seen the Hellfire co. controls the nations finances and the heads of it all sit on the quiet council. Xavier's personal fortune before Krakoa, which has been revealed to be way larger than anyone thought or knew, has been rolled into developing Krakoa (basically he bankrolled setting everything up). The products of and Krakoa itself, are removed from personal ownership as per the 1st meeting of the quiet council.
    I could actually see that being an interesting thread if Krakoa implodes. Force the X-men to start over but Xavier is now totally broke because they sunk everything into Krakoa. I think they've always had the backing of his bottomless wealth, even when he was dead.

  15. #255
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    If death is pointless because we are reading a never ending tale in which any death of any popular character is eventually going to be undone, why stop there ??

    Lets make them invincible, because no matter how hard things is going to be, no matter how terrifying or powerfull is the villain, they are going to win, so the figth is actually pointless. At the same time, they are money makers so they can never achieve the happy ending or any ending, because things are stagnated in the comic book industry.

    We stay for the ride, because we want to know how things are gonna played out or because we have hopes that the next change can feel like a real evolution.

    Because death is inevitable in a story that cant actually end with characters with decades of continuity and the resurrection is a consequence because is impossible to keep the big names forever in limbo, it should be handled carefully or have a real impact, even if is going to be reverted eventually, it should be handled very occasional, not what we had previously to Krakoa but neither this.

    I dont know if i explained myself, lets say that i dont think that the possibility of death is an actual problem, unimaginative and lazy authors are the real problem.

    What happens in X-Force #5 is precisely what i always fear about this, even if is just the "gritty series".
    Last edited by Lapsus; 01-12-2020 at 08:46 PM.

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