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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    So did Xavier move his own consciousness into the clones body? Because I know telepaths have done things like that before, sometimes outright possessing people
    I just reread the issue. It was a bit unclear, but the implication is that he did hop over himself. However, the issue also makes a big deal about that it might not work, so I'm not sure how much of it was a medical procedure, and how much was Xavier's own psionic ability. It does stand to reason that he could do it himself, much like Shadow King has done, or Jean in Emma's body that one time, or Emma in Bobby's body that other time(though there might have been a technological component to that one too).
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Even the “egg” thing is set in previous resurrection processes. During Secret Wars II after Beyonder killed the New Mutants, he gathered their essence and formed appropriate bodies through his powerful molecular manipulation. Of course he was missing the “memories” portion because he needed them as a blank slate but there’s also precedent for anima being crucial to resurrection. The Five basically run the exact same process except Xavier is able to implant their memories.

    Magneto had to take the kids to Emma to somehow fix them. They were just zoned out xombies before that. Also, that was an awesome show for the NM, they effectively took on the combined might of the rest of the MU heroes in that Secret Wars II story, at least for a page or two!

    Last edited by yogaflame; 01-15-2020 at 12:00 AM.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  3. #303
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Magneto had to take the kids to Emma to somehow fix them. They were just zoned out xombies before that. Also, that was an awesome show for the NM, they effectively took on the combined might of the rest of the MU heroes in that Secret Wars II story, at least for a page or two!

    Karma and Mirage working together were able to hold Phoenix Rachel and it took Iron Man, Wonder Man, Namor, and Hulk all hitting Cannonball at once to finally break through his barrier. They did all this as teenagers. But yeah, the Beyonder’s machine functions in almost the same way that the Five and Cerebro does. Wherein the Five are tasked with manually creating the “appropriate bodies” that go through a maturation process to the desired age. Then, Xavier brings their essence back into their body. Just like how Spider-Man came back after there was just mind and memories scattered in Doc Ock’s psyche or Magik being reformed via her essence scattered in Limbo, these are the same heroes that we’ve been reading about but just brought back through ways that may not necessarily jive with a real-world understanding of souls.

    EDIT: okay maybe the Magik example doesn’t quite work cause she literally went on a soul quest after coming back but my point still stands
    Last edited by Tycon; 01-15-2020 at 12:51 AM.

  4. #304
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
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    It's comic story, not rocket science. If the writer wants them to be the same, they are.
    To me, they are not the same because they don't feel the same. Is it intentional or Hickman just doesn't care to write them in the same way? It has been said, again and again that character development is not his forte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Their essence makes them who they are, not their most recent memory. What I’m getting at is that Hickman is smart enough to not turn this into an island of clones and cheat his entire X-Slack out of writing the characters they’ve pitched in. The thing is that “mutants don’t die” not “mutants die but don’t worry, a clone of them takes their place”
    Do you function in the same way whether you have access to the totality of your memory or only a part of it? I'm not a specialist but I wouldn't bet about it.
    Krakoa populated by a army of pod people? I agree: not a very satisfying X-men story.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  5. #305
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Why would that surprise you? We already know the copies are incomplete because they lack their recent memories. Its not a stretch to just assume they're all clones, and this turns into a 'what is the measure of a copy?' type of thing the Clone Saga tried.
    They could also have the totality of the memory but cannot have access to the whole. Yet. Hopefully.
    Because if they are copies, where are the originals? The copy stuff seems to me unlikely, though…
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  6. #306
    Incredible Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    What human-mutant alliances or friendships have we seen so far: How did they come across to you? Does it feel genuine, as if it promotes prosperity? Or does it feel disingenuous? False perhaps? Do these friendships and alliances overlap?
    You read the run; you can tell me. I have only access to previews… and what the readers tell me. So I was told the Krakoans have human allies. On the extracts that were posted, the mutants talked about these allies. I still haven't seen a 'human' that isn't an old friend or a relative having a friendly and relaxed attitude among mutants.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  7. #307
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It's comic story, not rocket science. If the writer wants them to be the same, they are.
    To me, they are not the same because they don't feel the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    You read the run; you can tell me. I have only access to previews… and what the readers tell me. So I was told the Krakoans have human allies. On the extracts that were posted, the mutants talked about these allies. I still haven't seen a 'human' that isn't an old friend or a relative having a friendly and relaxed attitude among mutants.
    Seems to me no matter what Hickman does some people wouldn't be satisfied. I imagine it must get tiresome reading something that I just flat out dont agree with. The writer explains the resurrected are the same, fans present precedent but Nope! Not enough! People worried the Mutants getting too uppity with their oppressors...again writers tell us they have human allies. Prove it! We need to see it! Okay Done. Nope! Friends and families (ya know people realistically who are gonna be Allies) don't count. I need to see a random human holding their X-gene negative blood test on Krakoa stomping on the heads of mutant children in order for me to accept Humans are okay on Krakoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Is it intentional or Hickman just doesn't care to write them in the same way? It has been said, again and again that character development is not his forte.
    I meeean please point out the development characters have gotten in the last 2 runs? Besides fake marriages, new codenames, and a new character that looks/acts/same powers of an old dead one
    Pod People indeed!
    GrindrStone(D)

  8. #308
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    You can drown them in truths but they will never see the light for their minds are clouded by their own fear and judgement.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  9. #309
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Do you function in the same way whether you have access to the totality of your memory or only a part of it? I'm not a specialist but I wouldn't bet about it.
    Krakoa populated by a army of pod people? I agree: not a very satisfying X-men story.
    Huh??????? Of course I would. Ask any person who got blackout drunk and couldn’t discernibly recall the memories of the night before. At a certain point, alcohol literally impairs your ability to form new memories while in that state of drunkness.

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    You can drown them in truths but they will never see the light for their minds are clouded by their own fear and judgement.
    Or, y'know; it's a subjective medium and not every reader interprets one page the exact same way. If a character doesn't sound like themselves to a reader, then they don't sound like themselves to that reader. That's something that's going to impact their view of the story.

  11. #311
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Or, y'know; it's a subjective medium and not every reader interprets one page the exact same way. If a character doesn't sound like themselves to a reader, then they don't sound like themselves to that reader. That's something that's going to impact their view of the story.
    Okay what's your ideal status quo for the X-Men? Where do you want them to be post AoX-Man/Rosencanny?
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Okay what's your ideal status quo for the X-Men? Where do you want them to be post AoX-Man/Rosencanny?
    What's that got to do with the character's voices not sounding like themselves?

    I mean if ya want my fanfic idea, fair enough, but?

  13. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Okay what's your ideal status quo for the X-Men? Where do you want them to be post AoX-Man/Rosencanny?
    In terms of answering your question though (and I encourage others too!)

    I'd start with the build up towards a similar state of affairs as Hickman. The key difference, however, is that I'd start following up on the pockets of human-support we've seen dotted around the Marvel Universe at one time or another. I'd have humans wanting to protect their mutant kids from the 'cure', paralleling a similar narrative I've seen in the autistic community (in that, we argue against the idea that we need to be somehow 'fixed' to be a real 'person.') I'd push this further, in fact, in demonstrating how there might even be more 'passive aggressive' sorts of discrimination; mutants being encouraged to hide their abilities, similar to ABA therapy and have the X-Men realise just how far, institutionally speaking, this prejudice goes. I've have them actively battling against it from within a blended community of mutants and humans, show-casing what kind of connections they might have, the push-backs they'll face, ect. The one thing I would keep the same, though: is that I'd have a mandate in of "Quit. Killing. Mutants." Like if writers absolutely have to show a tragic death then, unfortunately, there'll be no shortage of humans to put that point across with.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    What's that got to do with the character's voices not sounding like themselves?

    I mean if ya want my fanfic idea, fair enough, but?
    I mean the further we get into this new era the more "the characters voices not sounding like themselves" complaint doesn't hold any water. At what point do you realize that these ARE the characters voices now and what you're holding onto is a past characterization that you liked and are unable to reconcile with the current one?

  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    I mean the further we get into this new era the more "the characters voices not sounding like themselves" complaint doesn't hold any water. At what point do you realize that these ARE the characters voices now and what you're holding onto is a past characterization that you liked and are unable to reconcile with the current one?
    Alright, this is an interesting talking point.

    Has there been a previous era in which you, yourself have had to accept this? Transition from the 60's to Claremont, for example? Or, how about, one Wolverine Solo to the next (in terms of differing creative teams, of course?) Ect?

    Additionally, I do argue that this complaint will continue to hold water until there is a proper explanation or, better yet, in-narrative transition between the character's values then and now. Plus, there's more to hearing a character's voice than just how you expect them to act: it's in their reactions, their emotive intonations, how they interact with others. It's chemistry, which can often come as part of how a writer, well, writes.

    Logan's vernacular for example, or even Gambit's; how they shave off the 'g' in most words: "Thinkin'," "Talkin'"--when that isn't present the characters don't tend to sound themselves. There's also how much they might talk about in one instance--Gambit's chattier than Logan, but he spaces it out, works off other character's dialogue.

    Those are things I haven't seen present in, say, Scott; where his dialogue seems more like exposition, or he's trying to argue a meta-point about the plot rather than feeling part of the plot. Rachel and Cable, additionally, didn't seem to have much chemistry between them or their father; they just seemed to be there. There was little emotive value, even casually, as far as I could see.

    Now I'm curious though; did you see any of what I didn't? Where, if so? How did this come across to you?

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