What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[Tycon]

The problem with the problem (heh) of wanting a “coherent” line of development from where the X-Men were to where they are now is that they should’ve established Krakoa or at least adopted these ways of thinking years ago. Specifically right after Genosha a got blown up and not a country did anything. We see at the end of Rosencanny that things weren’t ever going to be the same. What that and the Age of X-Man did was present the X-Men, mutants’ greatest defenders, with the undeniable fact that they’ve kept throwing themselves at a status quo that would never see them as people. Not only that but they saw a version of paradise where they weren’t punished for their powers and even though they were faced with problems concerning expressions of love, some of the biggest pushers of Xavier’s Dream wanted to stay in a mutant-only world.

Back during Carey’s published works during Decimation, we have a notion amongst the mutant villains that they’ve always been at war with humanity. That alone wasn’t what made them villains, it was the lengths they took to present that fact. What the X-Men never acknowledged was that although they would protect humans (and by extension, human institutions) was that mutantkind was always at war. That simple fact was extrapolated into something that could finally unite mutants all over.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

The problem with the problem (heh) of wanting a “coherent” line of development from where the X-Men were to where they are now is that they should’ve established Krakoa or at least adopted these ways of thinking years ago. Specifically right after Genosha a got blown up and not a country did anything. We see at the end of Rosencanny that things weren’t ever going to be the same. What that and the Age of X-Man did was present the X-Men, mutants’ greatest defenders, with the undeniable fact that they’ve kept throwing themselves at a status quo that would never see them as people. Not only that but they saw a version of paradise where they weren’t punished for their powers and even though they were faced with problems concerning expressions of love, some of the biggest pushers of Xavier’s Dream wanted to stay in a mutant-only world.

Back during Carey’s published works during Decimation, we have a notion amongst the mutant villains that they’ve always been at war with humanity. That alone wasn’t what made them villains, it was the lengths they took to present that fact. What the X-Men never acknowledged was that although they would protect humans (and by extension, human institutions) was that mutantkind was always at war. That simple fact was extrapolated into something that could finally unite mutants all over.

So, in the interest of a talking point: as a reader, have you always felt this way in regards to the idea of mutants vs the institution? Have you always been aware of it, perhaps, by your own experiences? (Which, just to clarify, I'm not asking or demanding you have to give or justify! It's all valid!) And, additionally, has this ever affected how you read other Marvel heroes, i.e, the more 'human' one's? Does it hamper your enjoyment at all? Does Moira's ret-conning of being a mutant masquerading as a human affect this, at all?

Additionally, how do you view Moira's ret-con into being a mutant in a broader narrative sense? Does it falsify any past relationships or plot points for you, or? If so/not, may I ask why?

[JB]

The problem with the problem (heh) of wanting a “coherent” line of development from where the X-Men were to where they are now is that they should’ve established Krakoa or at least adopted these ways of thinking years ago. Specifically right after Genosha a got blown up and not a country did anything. We see at the end of Rosencanny that things weren’t ever going to be the same. What that and the Age of X-Man did was present the X-Men, mutants’ greatest defenders, with the undeniable fact that they’ve kept throwing themselves at a status quo that would never see them as people. Not only that but they saw a version of paradise where they weren’t punished for their powers and even though they were faced with problems concerning expressions of love, some of the biggest pushers of Xavier’s Dream wanted to stay in a mutant-only world.

Back during Carey’s published works during Decimation, we have a notion amongst the mutant villains that they’ve always been at war with humanity. That alone wasn’t what made them villains, it was the lengths they took to present that fact. What the X-Men never acknowledged was that although they would protect humans (and by extension, human institutions) was that mutantkind was always at war. That simple fact was extrapolated into something that could finally unite mutants all over.

This is very good.

Ya'll keep talking, I'm having fun reading.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

So, in the interest of a talking point: as a reader, have you always felt this way in regards to the idea of mutants vs the institution? Have you always been aware of it, perhaps, by your own experiences? (Which, just to clarify, I'm not asking or demanding you have to give or justify! It's all valid!) And, additionally, has this ever affected how you read other Marvel heroes, i.e, the more 'human' one's? Does it hamper your enjoyment at all? Does Moira's ret-conning of being a mutant masquerading as a human affect this, at all?

Additionally, how do you view Moira's ret-con into being a mutant in a broader narrative sense? Does it falsify any past relationships or plot points for you, or? If so/not, may I ask why?

And: Do you feel that mutants being united (at least so suddenly) does away with any sort of nuance that might have been previously present? For example, the idea that it isn't just a simple case of 'us vs them' but that there's good and bad in all, or as you've mentioned, one individual who want to achieve the same goal perhaps more zealously than another? Do we lose individuality in this respect or do we gain it? How do you feel about this?

[BroHomo]

Alright, this is an interesting talking point.

Has there been a previous era in which you, yourself have had to accept this? Transition from the 60's to Claremont, for example? Or, how about, one Wolverine Solo to the next (in terms of differing creative teams, of course?) Ect?

Additionally, I do argue that this complaint will continue to hold water until there is a proper explanation or, better yet, in-narrative transition between the character's values then and now. Plus, there's more to hearing a character's voice than just how you expect them to act: it's in their reactions, their emotive intonations, how they interact with others. It's chemistry, which can often come as part of how a writer, well, writes.

Well first example I thought of....Tabby Smith
Im a product of the 90's so I wasnt aware of the 'Badass' wave that was washing over a lotta comic characters. the Issue that Tabitha Smith went from Boomer to Meltdown was sooo cool (still is) but that persona slowly faded into the more bubbly IDGAF personality she has now....kinda irked me but in a world with more badass no nonsense chicks than necessary her char didnt stand out that much, and Boom Boom seems to be finding her niche with the way shes written now soooooo

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Well first example I thought of....Tabby Smith
Im a product of the 90's so I wasnt aware of the 'Badass' wave that was washing over a lotta comic characters. the Issue that Tabitha Smith went from Boomer to Meltdown was sooo cool (still is) but that persona slowly faded into the more bubbly IDGAF personality she has now....kinda irked me but in a world with more badass no nonsense chicks than necessary her char didnt stand out that much, and Boom Boom seems to be finding her niche with the way shes written now soooooo

But you do struggle to properly identify what made her distinct in the first place? Do you find her softened development a natural, organic development or...? Like, do you feel this happened as a means to 'push' another character or not, or?

[Zelena]

I meeean please point out the development characters have gotten in the last 2 runs? Besides fake marriages, new codenames, and a new character that looks/acts/same powers of an old dead one
Pod People indeed!

I'm sorry I meant charaterization and maybe a lot of the blame should be put on the comic artist, this Yu(?) that seems to be unwilling to draw expressions that are unambiguous. I feel the drawing and the dialogues are at odds.
(The flat, neutral, "poker face" is easier and quicker to draw… albeit devoid of any fun.)

[Tycon]

So, in the interest of a talking point: as a reader, have you always felt this way in regards to the idea of mutants vs the institution? Have you always been aware of it, perhaps, by your own experiences? (Which, just to clarify, I'm not asking or demanding you have to give or justify! It's all valid!) And, additionally, has this ever affected how you read other Marvel heroes, i.e, the more 'human' one's? Does it hamper your enjoyment at all? Does Moira's ret-conning of being a mutant masquerading as a human affect this, at all?

Additionally, how do you view Moira's ret-con into being a mutant in a broader narrative sense? Does it falsify any past relationships or plot points for you, or? If so/not, may I ask why?

I had the fortune of growing up with parents who let me know early on that being socially conscious of my place in the world will help me better survive it. I don’t know when exactly I supplanted those feelings on the X-Men but I’ve always been drawn to them because they were black and queer to me. Not to mention that Krakoa literally adopts ideology from the Black Panthers’ in regard to granting mutant amnesty so they will no longer be judged under implicit/explicit antiblack biases. And while this read of the X-Men didn’t tamper with my enjoyment of many other heroes, I certainly didn’t care for Captain America (and still don’t). Not just because of his relation to mutants, but his goal of representing America without really ever confronting the problems that the “majority” don’t even have to recognize. It’s why I vibed so we’ll with Sam Wilson taking over the mantle, but that’s another thought train in another thread.



Moira’s true origins don’t really ring any falsities to me. Her plan is in line with what mutants as a whole should’ve come to realize by now. And the fan reaction to the Bishop scene in Uncanny: Disassembled seems to imply that a lot of the readership is ready to move past the tired ol’ “X-Men protect a world that kills them in return” runaround.

[Devaishwarya]

Or, y'know; it's a subjective medium and not every reader interprets one page the exact same way. If a character doesn't sound like themselves to a reader, then they don't sound like themselves to that reader. That's something that's going to impact their view of the story.

It's not entirely 100% subjective, though.
And going by that very premise, what the reader interprets may not be what the writer intended.
So, initially...we should objectively go with what's actually written and shown on page as some measure of actual intent before we get all caught up in our personal head-canon and feels (along with some informed knowledge).

[Zelena]

I had the fortune of growing up with parents who let me know early on that being socially conscious of my place in the world will help me better survive it. I don’t know when exactly I supplanted those feelings on the X-Men but I’ve always been drawn to them because they were black and queer to me. Not to mention that Krakoa literally adopts ideology from the Black Panthers’ in regard to granting mutant amnesty so they will no longer be judged under implicit/explicit antiblack biases. And while this read of the X-Men didn’t tamper with my enjoyment of many other heroes, I certainly didn’t care for Captain America (and still don’t). Not just because of his relation to mutants, but his goal of representing America without really ever confronting the problems that the “majority” don’t even have to recognize. It’s why I vibed so we’ll with Sam Wilson taking over the mantle, but that’s another thought train in another thread.



Moira’s true origins don’t really ring any falsities to me. Her plan is in line with what mutants as a whole should’ve come to realize by now. And the fan reaction to the Bishop scene in Uncanny: Disassembled seems to imply that a lot of the readership is ready to move past the tired ol’ “X-Men protect a world that kills them in return” runaround.

There is a slight difference between wanting equal rights and more rights than others.
Hickman's run doesn't seem to be about equal rights.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I had the fortune of growing up with parents who let me know early on that being socially conscious of my place in the world will help me better survive it. I don’t know when exactly I supplanted those feelings on the X-Men but I’ve always been drawn to them because they were black and queer to me. Not to mention that Krakoa literally adopts ideology from the Black Panthers’ in regard to granting mutant amnesty so they will no longer be judged under implicit/explicit antiblack biases. And while this read of the X-Men didn’t tamper with my enjoyment of many other heroes, I certainly didn’t care for Captain America (and still don’t). Not just because of his relation to mutants, but his goal of representing America without really ever confronting the problems that the “majority” don’t even have to recognize. It’s why I vibed so we’ll with Sam Wilson taking over the mantle, but that’s another thought train in another thread.



Moira’s true origins don’t really ring any falsities to me. Her plan is in line with what mutants as a whole should’ve come to realize by now. And the fan reaction to the Bishop scene in Uncanny: Disassembled seems to imply that a lot of the readership is ready to move past the tired ol’ “X-Men protect a world that kills them in return” runaround.

So, you're saying you like the retcon because it's what you expect of the characters to act like? Not necessarily how they might? (Which, I want to clarify, I'm not trying to argue against or invalidate! This thread is meant to lay out both sides of the readership! Apologies if the question does sound too invasive in that respect.)

Do you think it's possible that the narrative's been exaggerated over the years? Or, the narrative you saw in "Protect a world that kills them in return?" Do you not feel heroism needs a sense of altruism, even if unrewarded? Why do you feel it's tired?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

There is a slight difference between wanting equal rights and more rights than others.
Hickman's run doesn't seem to be about equal rights.

What gives you this impression, if you don't mind me asking? Have your experiences influenced this at all (Which, I want to clarify, holds no bearing on how valid your opinion may be!)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It's not entirely 100% subjective, though.
And going by that very premise, what the reader interprets may not be what the writer intended.
So, initially...we should objectively go with what's actually written and shown on page as some measure of actual intent before we get all caught up in our personal head-canon and feels (along with some informed knowledge).

Can I ask for a bit more detail about this opinion? What isn't subjective, do you feel? What a character does, the intent it's meant to communicate, ect? Do you perhaps know why others might feel contrary to how you've interpreted something?

[Tycon]

There is a slight difference between wanting equal rights and more rights than others.
Hickman's run doesn't seem to be about equal rights.

So, you're saying you like the retcon because it's what you expect of the characters to act like? Not necessarily how they might? (Which, I want to clarify, I'm not trying to argue against or invalidate! This thread is meant to lay out both sides of the readership! Apologies if the question does sound too invasive in that respect.)

Do you think it's possible that the narrative's been exaggerated over the years? Or, the narrative you saw in "Protect a world that kills them in return?" Do you not feel heroism needs a sense of altruism, even if unrewarded? Why do you feel it's tired?

It should be how they act. It’s a mixture of both personal and in-universe expectations. Like in my first post, we see how fatigued the X-Men are of having to fight day in and day out right after Disassembled. Also, altruism doesn’t need rewards. Expecting a thank you could maybe warrant that notion, but being murdered is not that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It should be how they act. It’s a mixture of both personal and in-universe expectations. Like in my first post, we see how fatigued the X-Men are of having to fight day in and day out right after Disassembled. Also, altruism doesn’t need rewards. Expecting a thank you could maybe warrant that notion, but being murdered is not that.

Ok, so, that's interesting: why should it be how they act, in your opinion? (And it's probably fair to say that this has greatly affected your reading of the X-Men before now? How so?)