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  1. #331
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ok, so, that's interesting: why should it be how they act, in your opinion? (And it's probably fair to say that this has greatly affected your reading of the X-Men before now? How so?)
    Because we’ve been provided with proof that most of them are tired of fighting. Even during X-Men #1, we see Storm tired of having to clean up messes but never tired of lifting up mutants. I think it’s because they now have a pretty good picture of what happens when the worst thing they had to deal with is a forest fire.



    And it didn’t really affect the reading, IF were talking about my enjoyment. I mean I was eventually tired of the extinction stories but that’s because it was draining and repetitive. As far as reading those stories, I still loved them but I just saw more validity to what Magneto was preaching.

  2. #332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Because we’ve been provided with proof that most of them are tired of fighting. Even during X-Men #1, we see Storm tired of having to clean up messes but never tired of lifting up mutants. I think it’s because they now have a pretty good picture of what happens when the worst thing they had to deal with is a forest fire.



    And it didn’t really affect the reading, IF were talking about my enjoyment. I mean I was eventually tired of the extinction stories but that’s because it was draining and repetitive. As far as reading those stories, I still loved them but I just saw more validity to what Magneto was preaching.
    So can I ask, what specifically about what Magneto was preaching rang especially strong to you? In light of what you've told us?

    Do you also feel that, in lifting mutants up there might have come a certain degree of talking down or tearing down of humans, as might be coming across to some readers? Do you feel this is fair, either institutionally or individually?

    Also, in terms of characters being shown as tired of fighting: does this not mean they've given up in a sense? Does that not undermine the core values of the X-Men as a whole? If not, how so?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 11:48 AM.

  3. #333
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So can I ask, what specifically about what Magneto was preaching rang especially strong to you? In light of what you've told us?

    Do you also feel that, in lifting mutants up there might have come a certain degree of talking down or tearing down of humans, as might be coming across to some readers? Do you feel this is fair, either institutionally or individually?

    Also, in terms of characters being shown as tired of fighting: does this not mean they've given up in a sense? Does that not undermine the core values of the X-Men as a whole? If not, how so?
    Magneto understood that something bigger had to happen if the situation with mutants was ever to change. Whereas Xavier seemed to glorify integration without the acknowledgement of institutionalized anti-mutant sentiment. That’s something Magneto not only acknowledged but sought to make known to any and all mutants. It was a call to revolution, and while he clearly went very overboard, he did make some pretty valid points.

    Lifting mutants up to me equals black pride and queer liberation. If you (not YOU, literally just in general) feel that you’re somehow being torn down by marginalized people forming a community with those who can connect cause of shared multigeneration trauma, then there needs to be an introspection within that person: Why is something like that so angering to me when it couldn’t possibly begin to hurt me in any way? Am I truly just mad because this is space that isn’t for me and that there’s no way to invade it without being ridiculed?

    No, they haven’t given up. They’ve just changed the game. If you believe the core values of the X-Men are totally intertwined with Xavier’s Dream, then it’s pretty unrealistic until there’s a more evening out of the playing field. If mutants won’t be given a chance to be equal to humans, then they need to take that chance.

  4. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Magneto understood that something bigger had to happen if the situation with mutants was ever to change. Whereas Xavier seemed to glorify integration without the acknowledgement of institutionalized anti-mutant sentiment. That’s something Magneto not only acknowledged but sought to make known to any and all mutants. It was a call to revolution, and while he clearly went very overboard, he did make some pretty valid points.

    Lifting mutants up to me equals black pride and queer liberation. If you (not YOU, literally just in general) feel that you’re somehow being torn down by marginalized people forming a community with those who can connect cause of shared multigeneration trauma, then there needs to be an introspection within that person: Why is something like that so angering to me when it couldn’t possibly begin to hurt me in any way? Am I truly just mad because this is space that isn’t for me and that there’s no way to invade it without being ridiculed?

    No, they haven’t given up. They’ve just changed the game. If you believe the core values of the X-Men are totally intertwined with Xavier’s Dream, then it’s pretty unrealistic until there’s a more evening out of the playing field. If mutants won’t be given a chance to be equal to humans, then they need to take that chance.
    Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer! It's important, I think, that we all try and see each other's side!

    I do have a few more questions, though, in regards to the lifting up/tearing down argument, though if that's ok? I understand what you're saying about the introspection; but what if readers don't find it angering? What if they find it disheartening, either because Xavier's dream is said to be 'foolish' or unrealistic, or that they suddenly are meant to be left out of something they otherwise related to? Do you have an opinion on that, or any advice about it? Do you think there's only one way to view Krakoa in regards to which minorities it calls to? Do disabled readers get to have a say, for example?

    And do you think that dialogues from characters, say from Storm or Magneto are or could be seen as mutants tearing down humanity to build themselves up? Distancing themselves from their humanity, for example, or even casually deriding them or anything 'human'?

    In light of a recent announcement too; some humans are stated to be living on Krakoa with their spouses/family members--are these, in your opinion, invaders in a place not for them?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 12:25 PM.

  5. #335
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer! It's important, I think, that we all try and see each other's side!

    I do have a few more questions, though, in regards to the lifting up/tearing down argument, though if that's ok? I understand what you're saying about the introspection; but what if readers don't find it angering? What if they find it disheartening, either because Xavier's dream is said to be 'foolish' or unrealistic, or that they suddenly are meant to be left out of something they otherwise related to? Do you have an opinion on that, or any advice about it? Do you think there's only one way to view Krakoa in regards to which minorities it calls to? Do disabled readers get to have a say, for example?

    And do you think that dialogues from characters, say from Storm or Magneto are or could be seen as mutants tearing down humanity to build themselves up? Distancing themselves from their humanity, for example, or even casually deriding them or anything 'human'?

    In light of a recent announcement too; some humans are stated to be living on Krakoa with their spouses/family members--are these, in your opinion, invaders in a place not for them?
    Anyone can have a say, lol what?

    I’m specifically talking about Storm. Magneto has justifiable anger in what he says, and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with him. So again, if people really take that as some devastating hardship to humans then there’s gotta be some introspection. Mutants were getting experimented on and murdered, if the worst that humans have to face is Magneto saying “y’all suck and are beneath me” then I truly couldn’t care less.

    Not necessarily. These aren’t just run of the mill humans, these are humans will close connections to mutants on the island. Shogo is the son of Jubilee and Kyle is the husband of Northstar. As long as the space is being respected and acknowledged as something that was originally created because of mutant response to human discrimination, then I don’t see a problem. Parallels white students going to HBCUs and straight, cis people attending Pride Festivals.

  6. #336

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Anyone can have a say, lol what?

    I’m specifically talking about Storm. Magneto has justifiable anger in what he says, and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with him. So again, if people really take that as some devastating hardship to humans then there’s gotta be some introspection. Mutants were getting experimented on and murdered, if the worst that humans have to face is Magneto saying “y’all suck and are beneath me” then I truly couldn’t care less.

    Not necessarily. These aren’t just run of the mill humans, these are humans will close connections to mutants on the island. Shogo is the son of Jubilee and Kyle is the husband of Northstar. As long as the space is being respected and acknowledged as something that was originally created because of mutant response to human discrimination, then I don’t see a problem. Parallels white students going to HBCUs and straight, cis people attending Pride Festivals.
    Sorry, I meant in terms of identifying with the characters? Or the concept in general? Nobody has to feel 'pushed out' or 'left behind' if they don't necessarily agree with the direction? (And, please, keep in mind, in some cases it's the characters that keep us tethered to this franchise, not the world itself.)

    So you didn't view Storm's dialogue as broadly harmful or tearing humans down?

    And why do you think readers might take it as "a devastating hardship to humans"? We've all been rooting for the same characters, after all, and we've all seen the hell our favourites have been put through: why do you think some are suddenly concerned for the attitude shift? Do you think it truly is internalised biases? Or do you think there might be some validity to the idea that mutants might become what they hated in the first place? Is it fear of Magneto's ideology? A grief at the loss of Xavier's?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 12:59 PM.

  7. #337
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Sorry, I meant in terms of identifying with the characters? Or the concept in general? Nobody has to feel 'pushed out' or 'left behind' if they don't necessarily agree with the direction? (And, please, keep in mind, in some cases it's the characters that keep us tethered to this franchise, not the world itself.)

    So you didn't view Storm's dialogue as broadly harmful or tearing humans down?
    The X-Men are supposed to represent anyone who’s been “othered.”

    No, it really ain’t that serious. I think they should be more worried over funding their government to experiment of mutant children rather than some offhand comment.

    And why do you think readers might take it as "a devastating hardship to humans"? We've all been rooting for the same characters, after all, and we've all seen the hell our favourites have been put through: why do you think some are suddenly concerned for the attitude shift?
    idk you tell me. I really don’t get it.

  8. #338

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    The X-Men are supposed to represent anyone who’s been “othered.”

    No, it really ain’t that serious. I think they should be more worried over funding their government to experiment of mutant children rather than some offhand comment.



    idk you tell me. I really don’t get it.
    I think it comes from a sense of empathy, maybe?

    Or, experiences with it at least; for example, I've been sexually assaulted in childhood, I've been constantly othered because of my disability and exploited for it. But I still wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone--even the perpetrators. I've a deep hatred for one of those people...but I also accept that, at the end of the day, that hatred isn't productive. I could go out and stab him in the knees...but I'd never get that closure. I know I transpose those feelings onto the X-Men comics, so to see Magneto spouting such a rhetoric (as justified as his trauma might make it) and seeing it glorified...makes me worry. Not for humans, I don't suppose, but for what it means for mutants as a people. Are they truly destined to remain separate? Is that the only option for any of us? Is there really no way to build alliances between people's to strengthen our causes and take down the institution where it stands?

    I guess I'm just not sold on the eye-for-an-eye concept?

    Those are my views anyway; it's not universal and nobody should feel obligated to share more than they feel comfortable with!


    But, on a more direct, in narrative topic: Do humans in the MU know how their government spends their money? Are they actually supporting this, or is it covert?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #339
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I think it comes from a sense of empathy, maybe?

    Or, experiences with it at least; for example, I've been sexually assaulted in childhood, I've been constantly othered because of my disability and exploited for it. But I still wouldn't wish those experiences on anyone--even the perpetrators. I've a deep hatred for one of those people...but I also accept that, at the end of the day, that hatred isn't productive. I could go out and stab him in the knees...but I'd never get that closure. I know I transpose those feelings onto the X-Men comics, so to see Magneto spouting such a rhetoric (as justified as his trauma might make it) and seeing it glorified...makes me worry. Not for humans, I don't suppose, but for what it means for mutants as a people. Are they truly destined to remain separate? Is that the only option for any of us? Is there really no way to build alliances between people's to strengthen our causes and take down the institution where it stands?

    I guess I'm just not sold on the eye-for-an-eye concept?

    Those are my views anyway; it's not universal and nobody should feel obligated to share more than they feel comfortable with!


    But, on a more direct, in narrative topic: Do humans in the MU know how their government spends their money? Are they actually supporting this, or is it covert?
    I’m sorry that happened to you and thank you for sharing. Storm and Magneto aren’t targeting an individual, they’re discussing a system. They are punching up at those with privilege and a society that considers them the bottom of the barrel. It is in no way an eye-for-an-eye, because like I said, mutants have gone through far worse trials and tribulations than just little insults. Empathy is human allies seeing what mutants are going through and seeing that even though they are angry, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are gonna go kick some random human in the back of the head.

    Also, the Sentinel funding is common knowledge to every mutant, so it’d be a bit weird if that knowledge suddenly didn’t make it the humans.

  10. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    I’m sorry that happened to you and thank you for sharing. Storm and Magneto aren’t targeting an individual, they’re discussing a system. They are punching up at those with privilege and a society that considers them the bottom of the barrel. It is in no way an eye-for-an-eye, because like I said, mutants have gone through far worse trials and tribulations than just little insults. Empathy is human allies seeing what mutants are going through and seeing that even though they are angry, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are gonna go kick some random human in the back of the head.

    Also, the Sentinel funding is common knowledge to every mutant, so it’d be a bit weird if that knowledge suddenly didn’t make it the humans.
    I still don't understand the concept of punching up though. Are you sure it isn't eye-for-an-eye? Because, even if they are just 'little insults', they're still belittling someone. They're still putting someone down for how they are, whether they've done something to deserve it or not. My assaulter, for example, was a male much older than me: I don't like saying that men are evil because...my dad and brother have continually proven that wrong, if only by handling me as a newborn and doing nothing of harm. Logically speaking, I can't separate the individual from the broader system, in that sense, because the individuals make up that system? If that makes any sense? (And I think others might struggle with that too?) And the same applies to me: if someone says "Autistics can't function in society"--that's it, I'm angry. That's not fair; they don't know me and how hard I've worked. But then, I don't know them either, or the emotional hardship they may well have faced in struggling to care for a loved one? But then, I've also faced some violent discrimination from the hand of another disabled person. I can't tar all men with MS as evil either, ya know? Sorry if that sounds like a rant, but it is a struggle, especially when you love this medium so much, ya know?


    Also, I hope this isn't a bad thing to say: I struggle to see empathy as a one-way thing?

    Sentinel funding, but that wasn't part of the kids being experimented on, was it? I know the government was probably aware of that sector, but were regular people?
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  11. #341
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I still don't understand the concept of punching up though. Are you sure it isn't eye-for-an-eye? Because, even if they are just 'little insults', they're still belittling someone. They're still putting someone down for how they are, whether they've done something to deserve it or not. My assaulter, for example, was a male much older than me: I don't like saying that men are evil because...my dad and brother have continually proven that wrong, if only by handling me as a newborn and doing nothing of harm. Logically speaking, I can't separate the individual from the broader system, in that sense, because the individuals make up that system? If that makes any sense? (And I think others might struggle with that too?) And the same applies to me: if someone says "Autistics can't function in society"--that's it, I'm angry. That's not fair; they don't know me and how hard I've worked. But then, I don't know them either, or the emotional hardship they may well have faced in struggling to care for a loved one? But then, I've also faced some violent discrimination from the hand of another disabled person. I can't tar all men with MS as evil either, ya know? Sorry if that sounds like a rant, but it is a struggle, especially when you love this medium so much, ya know?


    Also, I hope this isn't a bad thing to say: I struggle to see empathy as a one-way thing?

    Sentinel funding, but that wasn't part of the kids being experimented on, was it? I know the government was probably aware of that sector, but were regular people?
    “Punching up is a term for deploying powerful techniques of criticism and rhetoric to critique and dismantle power structures, rather than to harm people disempowered relative to yourself. It (apparently) comes from comedy, in which the idea is to make fun of powerful people and institutions rather than disempowered people.”

    It’s very easy to separate a system from the individual. These are laws, systems, courts that were literally formed off of racist ideals. Those are then enforced by individuals, but are those people “the system”? No, even though they are perpetuating it. Another example, you can live in a capitalist society and not be capitalist.

    I appreciate these questions but my position is pretty clear & this discussion is starting to feel cyclical. I’m literally being devalued for my existence and that dehumanization is in no way comparable to basic jokes. I know oppression, too. I get to joke about heterosexuality from my perspective as a queer person. It can be a way to connect to others who gave the same sort of oppression, same as a trans person who may crack jokes at cisgender people.

  12. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    “Punching up is a term for deploying powerful techniques of criticism and rhetoric to critique and dismantle power structures, rather than to harm people disempowered relative to yourself. It (apparently) comes from comedy, in which the idea is to make fun of powerful people and institutions rather than disempowered people.”

    It’s very easy to separate a system from the individual. These are laws, systems, courts that were literally formed off of racist ideals. Those are then enforced by individuals, but are those people “the system”? No, even though they are perpetuating it. Another example, you can live in a capitalist society and not be capitalist.

    I appreciate these questions but my position is pretty clear & this discussion is starting to feel cyclical. I’m literally being devalued for my existence and that dehumanization is in no way comparable to basic jokes. I know oppression, too. I get to joke about heterosexuality from my perspective as a queer person. It can be a way to connect to others who gave the same sort of oppression, same as a trans person who may crack jokes at cisgender people.
    Ah, thankyou for the clarification on the 'system', I think I understand that a bit better now. That makes sense; it's like, "It's the law itself, not the people who are the problem" to a certain extent?

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. We just have different experiences and...quite frankly, I'm not sure what's funny about it? Like, you're making jokes at someone's expense? But I'm not trying to invalidate you or your experiences...it's that half of the argument I just don't understand? Like when the MS roommate I mentioned would try to 'connect' by calling me a "Retard" but then use that at the same time to undermine any of my thoughts or opinions a minute later? That was horrible...

    (Also, to be clear, I'm not trying to change your mind at all! This is just meant to be the 'ultimate perspective' type of thread--ya know, with all the probing questions meant to help others or provide an alternative perspective. No fighting allowed here!)
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 01-15-2020 at 02:26 PM.

  13. #343
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Ennnnhhhh!!!
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 01-15-2020 at 09:08 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  14. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Just one (of many) example:

    The idea that Krakoa is now a fascist cult state hell-bent on dominating humans and taking over the world (as interpreted by certain readers)...is purely subjective.
    But...objectively, in many instances, it's clearly not what the writer(s) intend nor what they are showing in-story and on the page.
    Because to do so; to write the X-Men as such contradicts EVERYTHING the X-Men has historically and literarily stood for in the MU and to the readership at large for decades since inception. And similarly, to hold fast to that subversive concept, the reader would have to throw out everything they knew and believed the X-Men to be all for appeasing their personal sense of subjective discomfort and disagreement with what they are being shown.

    I am not saying that HiX-Man cannot choose to turn a concept on its head but...when you look at what his clear and honest intentions were prior to coming on board to helm the X-Line in those early interviews (and you have to accept a certain level of sincerity on his part, regardless of how you feel about the execution), objectively speaking, he hasn't torn the X-mythos apart and asunder...as some would subjectively believe.

    I can't speak to why others may feel as they do or choose to interpret things the way they do.
    But so many critiques and responses stem from "I don't Like..." or "This makes me feel..." and then we question the creators and the work instead of questioning ourselves and our reactions as to why we think this and feel that way.

    We can all agree that art subjectively makes us feel and think things, but with informed knowledge and understanding of the piece, we should be able to first look at that same piece of art with a sense of emotional detachment and see it, judge it as a thing separate and of itself. And then try to understand why we feel and think the way we do. When we ascribe our personal feelings and views, with prejudice, onto the art in question without first trying to understand the artist's intent, we do a gross disservice to ourselves.
    But then, I have to ask; hasn't Hickman already contradicted most of the X-mythos anyway?

    -He's retconned Moira into having been masquerading as a human, effectively falsifying the 'human empathy' perspective and, to an extent, making us wonder if it was ever possible,

    --He's had Moira essentially trying to 'break' Xavier throughout their history together, viewing his ideals as useless and ineffective

    --He's declared, in narrative, that the idea of true co-existence and integration was "A lie." Even the approach of mutants being separated in and of itself is a contradiction to what the X-men originally fought for.

    Is that not already a massive contradiction of character values regardless of his intent when coming aboard?

    Additionally; what questions should readers be asking themselves if they don't like this direction? Does it point to moral failings, would you say? Or is there any weight, in your opinion, to these reactions? Are they valid?

    Additionally so; by nature of art being designed to make us think and feel...isn't it best, if we are to truly try to understand the intent, to truly factor in emotional value? Is that not a valid way of judging it wholly? Is it not disingenuous to just 'detach' and never question the artist intent--especially if (and I'm speaking hypothetically here, not of these works necessarily) they contain potentially harmful or problematic content?

  15. #345
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ah, thankyou for the clarification on the 'system', I think I understand that a bit better now. That makes sense; it's like, "It's the law itself, not the people who are the problem" to a certain extent?

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel that way. We just have different experiences and...quite frankly, I'm not sure what's funny about it? Like, you're making jokes at someone's expense? But I'm not trying to invalidate you or your experiences...it's that half of the argument I just don't understand? Like when the MS roommate I mentioned would try to 'connect' by calling me a "Retard" but then use that at the same time to undermine any of my thoughts or opinions a minute later? That was horrible...

    (Also, to be clear, I'm not trying to change your mind at all! This is just meant to be the 'ultimate perspective' type of thread--ya know, with all the probing questions meant to help others or provide an alternative perspective. No fighting allowed here!)

    Exactly. People can encourage the existence of a system but that doesn’t mean they themselves make it up. When folks talk about dismantling a system, that rarely involves punishment of those who unknowingly contribute to it.

    Oh my god that’s horrible! That’s completely shitty and definitely an example of punching down. Punching down would be some who may be rich, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, neurotypical, white, lightskinned etcetera at someone who may be poor, trans, gay, disabled, mentally ill, a person of color, dark in complexion etcetera. It’s speaking from a place of privilege and using that position to make a joke at the expense of a person’s identity. It’s helping perpetuate a system that already excuses day/to-day oppression by making light of tragedies or slurs or stereotypes that really affect that party in a way that isn’t constructive.

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