What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Exactly. People can encourage the existence of a system but that doesn’t mean they themselves make it up. When folks talk about dismantling a system, that rarely involves punishment of those who unknowingly contribute to it.

Oh my god that’s horrible! That’s completely shitty and definitely an example of punching down. Punching down would be some who may be rich, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, neurotypical, white, lightskinned etcetera at someone who may be poor, trans, gay, disabled, mentally ill, a person of color, dark in complexion etcetera. It’s speaking from a place of privilege and using that position to make a joke at the expense of a person’s identity. It’s helping perpetuate a system that already excuses day/to-day oppression by making light of tragedies or slurs or stereotypes that really affect that party in a way that isn’t constructive.

But then: don't the X-Men's moving away from humanity further perpetuate the attitudes that might contribute to the already biased system? I mean, economic bargaining is nice but I've heard many a person who enjoys Chinese-made products...basically say things about the people I'd rather not repeat. It doesn't really challenge perceptions on its' own? Like, bad humans yelled "Get out!" enough and...they did. So, they won? And they feel incentivised now to hold protest rallies whenever any mutant steps on 'human' land? Those voices win? Much like how a victory for Brexit over here has given strength to bigots who want anyone 'not British' out?

But that's the thing; we were both disabled? Just very, very differently disabled? I was the able-bodied one while he was the neuro-typical one? That's why I ask these questions, you see, it feels like a bit of a contradiction in itself? That's still technically punching down, even within the same sort of community? (Different communities, sure, because ya know. Different disabilities. He was so manipulative though; had me second-guessing everything about myself until my sense of worth was nothing. He was very much like Moira, actually, in how he asserted that his way was correct because 'he'd seen more.' Had the friggin' charisma of Magneto though, so, ya know. Ya believed him.) I still think I might have had more privilege than him, in a way?

[pkingdom]

Krakoa feels like its giving the racists what they want. Now all of the mutants are out of sight and out of mind. Feels very 'go back to your country', which is a sentiment I see all the time around me in Alabama.

Mutants selling medicine isn't that much different than circumstances in the real world. Insulin and other livesaving drugs being made in other countries for cheap doesn't really engender love for those countries. People don't even think of that kind of thing. Granted its not a 1 to 1 comparison.

[CoCoBandz]

Krakoa feels like its giving the racists what they want. Now all of the mutants are out of sight and out of mind. Feels very 'go back to your country', which is a sentiment I see all the time around me in Alabama.

Mutants selling medicine isn't that much different than circumstances in the real world. Insulin and other livesaving drugs being made in other countries for cheap doesn't really engender love for those countries. People don't even think of that kind of thing. Granted its not a 1 to 1 comparison.

Honestly who cares about what the racists do or don't want?

They'll hate mutants regardless of where they are. That's been proven fact.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Honestly who cares about what the racists do or don't want?

They'll hate mutants regardless of where they are. That's been proven fact.

Well because if they're a majority vote/voice then nothing will ever change. In fact, things will escalate; tensions will run ever-higher without ever being alleviated. Mutants born in the human world will be screamed at to "GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY!" without ever being given a chance resulting in more violence. In the end, nowhere would be safe for mutants to go except Krakoa.

Plus, they (the racists) won. They should never win; they should never be given power or confidence like that. It affects everyone involved for the worse and puts people in danger, including their fellow "race traitor" humans.

Double plus: Magneto's plan to buy out institutions or medias they might make this known wouldn't necessarily silence them. If anything, it'd perpetuate the notion (in their minds) that they're somehow oppressed and being censored. Those are the kinds of arguments that lead to Brexit, that lead to the (new) government that is pushing for its' most extreme version. You can't completely silence them, if anything you make them more dangerous by making them go underground.

[JB]

Krakoa feels like its giving the racists what they want. Now all of the mutants are out of sight and out of mind.

Not true, sir! Betsy and crew are front and center, approved by the Queen to safeguard Britain.

Psylocke and them are about to kick some cyber ghost thing ass for all to see. Plus we have the mutants Tycon brought to our attention who will be part of the new New Warriors and Champions, including Dust and Firestar. :-)

We also have Greenspace, a mutant-run research facility which was attacked because it is Krakoan, plus the other facilities. AND of course the Marauders! Which, by the way, should end up allowing that desk jockey (if he keeps thinking and speaking smarter) come aboard to make a documentary.

EDIT: Yup, Greenspace is outside San Francisco.

[CoCoBandz]

Well because if they're a majority vote/voice then nothing will ever change. In fact, things will escalate; tensions will run ever-higher without ever being alleviated. Mutants born in the human world will be screamed at to "GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY!" without ever being given a chance resulting in more violence. In the end, nowhere would be safe for mutants to go except Krakoa.

Plus, they (the racists) won. They should never win; they should never be given power or confidence like that. It affects everyone involved for the worse and puts people in danger, including their fellow "race traitor" humans.

Double plus: Magneto's plan to buy out institutions or medias they might make this known wouldn't necessarily silence them. If anything, it'd perpetuate the notion (in their minds) that they're somehow oppressed and being censored. Those are the kinds of arguments that lead to Brexit, that lead to the (new) government that is pushing for its' most extreme version. You can't completely silence them, if anything you make them more dangerous by making them go underground.

It's not up to the oppressed to change the oppressor.

The mutants have no obligation to stay in dangerous waters expecting the shite bulk of humans to just eventually not want them dead. That approcach has failed for years.

At some point they have to start thinking about themselves first instead of winning racist humans over.

Also the anti-mutant crowd hasn't won a thing. Mutants can still literally walk anywhere on the Earth when they want. The real enemy isn't winning because now mutants have a base of economic influence and power and they've neutralized the mother of Sentinel projects for now. Some racist sign waving humans don't matter.

[Kisinith]

Krakoa feels like its giving the racists what they want. Now all of the mutants are out of sight and out of mind. Feels very 'go back to your country', which is a sentiment I see all the time around me in Alabama.

Mutants selling medicine isn't that much different than circumstances in the real world. Insulin and other livesaving drugs being made in other countries for cheap doesn't really engender love for those countries. People don't even think of that kind of thing. Granted its not a 1 to 1 comparison.

I disagree with this completely, they may not be living next door but they are front and center on a bigger stage. By forming their own nation and forcing the rest of the world to deal with them they have occupied significantly greater head-space than they did before where they were maligned and marginalized. Krakoa (Their own nation) gives them a platform to operate on a larger stage, reach a larger audience and enact more meaningful reforms. Furthermore this isn't the twentieth century, social media and modern communication invalidate much of that argument, not to mention Krakoan gates that allow for instantaneous transportation.

Your argument on insulin also doesn't work because it doesn't take scarcity into account. A better example from history would be silk which was a Chinese state secret for possibly as much as a millennium. That one product was so significant that it fueled the growth and expansion of the Chinese Empire, became one of it's monetary standards and the principal diplomatic gift. The silk trade fed into the development of the silk road which in turn fed the development of China (obviously), India, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and even Rome. Silk absolutely led to a fascination and fixation on China that directly influenced culture and laws far beyond its own borders. Rome actually tried (unsuccessfully) to ban it because of how much gold it was costing (and because some viewed it as damn near pornographic and immoral). This was all for a luxury good, if you compare it to just one of the Krakoan drugs it dwarfs it in scope. Currently just about 10 million people die from cancer each year, thats 10 million people plus their friends and family who now have a compelling personal reason to support mutants. Krakoan drugs are (currently) only available from the mutants and are inextricably linked to Krakoa and mutants. Anyone who takes one of their drugs, or has a family member taking one of those drugs is also consuming mutant benevolence with each dose. Everyone who has a relative with cancer, dementia, mental illness or any of the other diseases it can treat are going to clamor for it.

[pkingdom]

Not true, sir! Betsy and crew are front and center, approved by the Queen to safeguard Britain.

Psylocke and them are about to kick some cyber ghost thing ass for all to see. Plus we have the mutants Tycon brought to our attention who will be part of the new New Warriors and Champions, including Dust and Firestar. :-)

We also have Greenspace, a mutant-run research facility which was attacked because it is Krakoan, plus the other facilities. AND of course the Marauders! Which, by the way, should end up allowing that desk jockey (if he keeps thinking and speaking smarter) come aboard to make a documentary.

EDIT: Yup, Greenspace is outside San Francisco.

That's not what I mean. I hear all of the time from people things like "I don't have a problem with gays/blacks/etc., I just think they should stay with their own group/place." Krakoa is an ethnostate practically designed to facilitate that kind of thinking. There being mutant super teams operating outside of Krakoa and institutions owned by Krakoa doesn't change that.

I have no idea how Psylocke's mission will play out with people. Its one of those "this should be a big deal and potentially international news but is somehow clandestine" situation that pops up all the time in comics. And Excalibur is a powder keg waiting to blow, since it looks like they're trying to act like heroes for fixing a disaster they (mostly the Mutant Formerly Known as Apocalypse, but on behalf of Krakoa) caused. Neither really has anything to do with the day-to-day lives of normies.

Again, its a plot point in Fallen Angels that nobody leaves. The gates allow instantaneous transportation, but nobody is using them. The X-men have been using them for missions, but that's different from people coming and going regularly. That is definitely possible, but we've been told that that doesn't happen.

And social media existed before Krakoa and didn't help much. The only series were it played a part was Red, which seems to have been almost totally ignored at this point.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I disagree with this completely, they may not be living next door but they are front and center on a bigger stage. By forming their own nation and forcing the rest of the world to deal with them they have occupied significantly greater head-space than they did before where they were maligned and marginalized. Krakoa (Their own nation) gives them a platform to operate on a larger stage, reach a larger audience and enact more meaningful reforms. Furthermore this isn't the twentieth century, social media and modern communication invalidate much of that argument, not to mention Krakoan gates that allow for instantaneous transportation.

Your argument on insulin also doesn't work because it doesn't take scarcity into account. A better example from history would be silk which was a Chinese state secret for possibly as much as a millennium. That one product was so significant that it fueled the growth and expansion of the Chinese Empire, became one of it's monetary standards and the principal diplomatic gift. The silk trade fled to the development of the silk road which fed the development of China (obviously), India, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and Rome. Silk absolutely led to a fascination and fixation on China that directly influenced culture and laws far beyond its own borders. Rome actually tried (unsuccessfully) to ban it because of how much gold it was costing (and because some viewed it as damn near pornographic and immoral). This was all for a luxury good, if you compare it to just one of the Krakoan drugs it dwarfs it in scope. Currently just about 10 million people die from cancer each year, thats 10 million people plus their friends and family who now have a compelling personal reason to support mutants. Krakoan drugs are (currently) only available from the mutants and are inextricably linked to Krakoa and mutants. Anyone who takes one of their drugs, or has a family member taking one of those drugs is also consuming mutant benevolence with each dose. Everyone who has a relative with cancer, dementia, mental illness or any of the other diseases it can treat are going to clamor for it.

I've seen you argue this before, so, I'm curious: what more meaningful reforms can mutants enact from Krakoa that are guaranteed to be listened to? Or accepted? Which 'larger audience' will they be reaching; politicians or the people who put them in place?

And, though your historical point is fascinating; how can we equate that in a modern day sense? Are we seeing any of it today between nations we trade with? And though humans will clamour for the product offered, does that guarantee love and acceptance of the people who made it? As we've seen in history, though a people may offer an invaluable service and may even be pillars of that industry they can still very well be victims of discrimination and hatred in spite of it. Do you think mutants might become a further abstract concept: "The people who make drugs" rather than "My friend Jenny"?

(Also, to be sure, I don't mean this in the combative sense--it's just a probing question designed to properly see everyone's points of view.)

[Kisinith]

That's not what I mean. I hear all of the time from people things like "I don't have a problem with gays/blacks/etc., I just think they should stay with their own group/place." Krakoa is an ethnostate practically designed to facilitate that kind of thinking. There being mutant super teams operating outside of Krakoa and institutions owned by Krakoa doesn't change that.

I have no idea how Psylocke's mission will play out with people. Its one of those "this should be a big deal and potentially international news but is somehow clandestine" situation that pops up all the time in comics. And Excalibur is a powder keg waiting to blow, since it looks like they're trying to act like heroes for fixing a disaster they (mostly the Mutant Formerly Known as Apocalypse, but on behalf of Krakoa) caused. Neither really has anything to do with the day-to-day lives of normies.

No, its a state designed to provide refuge from overwhelming and unreasoning violence while dealing with said violence. It also wouldn't exist if it hadn't been made necessary by multiple genocides and a long pattern of either official indifference or outright support from just about every government in the world.

[pkingdom]

No, its a state designed to provide refuge from overwhelming and unreasoning violence while dealing with said violence. It also wouldn't exist if it hadn't been made necessary by multiple genocides and a long pattern of either official indifference or outright support from just about every government in the world.

I didn't mean that that is why Krakoa was made. Obviously it was made as a safe haven for mutants after all of the massacres and genocide attempts. I meant that its unintentionally helping enabling further 'us vs. them' mentality in people.

[CoCoBandz]

I didn't mean that that is why Krakoa was made. Obviously it was made as a safe haven for mutants after all of the massacres and genocide attempts. I meant that its unintentionally helping enabling further 'us vs. them' mentality in people.

I mean it was already at it's lowest point. What we see now is the mutants finally accepting that and moving on.

Coexistence won't happen with sunshine and rainbows. Never was going to. There must be a new approach before the next genocide attempts actually works.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I mean it was already at it's lowest point. What we see now is the mutants finally accepting that and moving on.

Coexistence won't happen with sunshine and rainbows. Never was going to. There must be a new approach before the next genocide attempts actually works.

I argue that's over-simplifying it just a bit.

[JB]

No, its a state designed to provide refuge from overwhelming and unreasoning violence while dealing with said violence. It also wouldn't exist if it hadn't been made necessary by multiple genocides and a long pattern of either official indifference or outright support from just about every government in the world.

And I think that's the main thing to recognize. The mutants have been trying to coexist, live among humans. It has failed so far.

[pkingdom]

Here's an odd question: how many genocide attempts have their actually been? I'm including the big ones like House of M and the small ones that were the plots of smaller books. And conversely, how many times have mutants attempted genocide of everyone else?