What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Well we have Moira's lives where she saw no way for the mutants to survive. And I'd have to look back at Rosecanny for exact details but there was a lot of talk of how dark the world became. We had Scott and crew smuggle mutants to a random country that was still friendly to mutants. If any of the better known countries were friendly, that would have been an easier transfer. (By the way, Val Cooper was responsible for that, a PLUS for humanity for sure)

Also if not for the resurrection process, most of our heroes would be dead now.

Extraordinary X-Men. Let me see if I can pull some context for you. It was after the Mist was released and [some] humans around the world saw it as an opportunity to end mutants forever and started killing them.

I still think that the premise of Moira only seeing 9 lives, though, is quite a flawed concept, given that after all the alternate universes and reality warpings we've seen...it feels like a tiny drop in an ocean. That's a big part of what affects my reading: suspension of disbelief but...also...the fact that Moira's been lying to us from the beginning. She's been masquerading. She's stated that, despite all the tenderness we've seen between them on panel...she's basically been out to break (or bully, as it felt to me) Charles at his core.

[Tycon]

Moira hasn’t been lying to Xavier, Magneto, or the audience. Her power is that she’s restarted the 616 so these aren’t alternate realities or reality warps, she’s doing Groundhog’s Day. Moira’s out to break Xavier because following his dream just leads them to this:

[JB]

Jbento we also have scenes of Magneto razing cities. Also, that page gets posted a lot and I have no idea where its from or what's going on. Who killed those people?

Here you go, pkingdom. Storm and Jean went inside Kurt's mind because he had been acting like zombie Banshee for a few issues. It took them a bit to break through his mental blocks and find out what caused his trauma and it was this:




Next page is the mass grave. Mind you, no authorities were stopping this.
This was also the time when Storm had Illyana move the mansion to limbo. Not only to avoid the Mist but also all of this going on.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Moira hasn’t been lying to Xavier, Magneto, or the audience. Her power is that she’s restarted the 616 so these aren’t alternate realities or reality warps, she’s doing Groundhog’s Day. Moira’s our to break Xavier because following his dream just leads them to this:

But all stories are still canon and events have still happened. Assuming she isn't just being selective in what she's shown Xavier, she's deceived everyone else. They mourned her, deeply (even Charles did...for some reason...even though you knew she was alive, my man?) I mean, Rahne's reaction to her death, pleading with her "mummy"? That's devastating. As a reader, it's very, very hard not to feel betrayed when you find out that's a lie; especially given that, in a meta sense, she never gave anything away to us. I understand that's because of a ret-con, but that's why the ret-con feels as it does, if ya get me?

[CoCoBandz]

Passive commentary dotted about since HOX/POX. Off the top of my head:

"Humans, is there any good in them?" --Lorna Davis

"A little dose of humanity to go with her humanity." "Let's get them out of those human clothes" --Emma Frost

Everything Magneto/Erik says when addressing anyone isn't a mutant, including comments about about religion, belief, institutions, ect from HOX #1. I can't list all that here, dude, I'm sorry.

"Human ideologies and institutions were never meant for something better" -- Dani Moonstar

"Man should know when he is beaten--he should know to break and run...or surrender and ask for unearned mercy..."--Ororo Munroe

Okay so comments by some mutants who all have their own reason for believing in and not believing in humans.

I don't have to tell you that they don't speak for the bulk of Krakoa.

You'd have to take a deeper look into what they've been through at the hands of humanity individually.

In Storms case she was referring to the psychos form Orchis that were trying to kill them. The wording could have been a bit better sure, but I think her statement was made clear when put into context.

Just remember that the first law of Krakoa was kill no man. That's not something you'd expect from a people that have disowned another people.

[Tycon]

But all stories are still canon and events have still happened. Assuming she isn't just being selective in what she's shown Xavier, she's deceived everyone else. They mourned her, deeply (even Charles did...for some reason...even though you knew she was alive, my man?) I mean, Rahne's reaction to her death, pleading with her "mummy"? That's devastating. As a reader, it's very, very hard not to feel betrayed when you find out that's a lie; especially given that, in a meta sense, she never gave anything away to us. I understand that's because of a ret-con, but that's why the ret-con feels as it does, if ya get me?

I said Xavier, Magneto, and the audience. And while the ‘audience’ thing can be contended, she definitely wasn’t lying to the other two. She doesn’t completely lack empathy so she probably knew how sad it would be for her loved ones, but she’s juggling the fate of mutantkind. She’s gonna make tough decisions.

[JB]

This is from the same run.





The kicker is the next page...

[JB]

The mutants are justified for being fed up.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Okay so comments by some mutants who all have their own reason for believing in and not believing in humans.

I don't have to tell you that they don't speak for the bulk of Krakoa.

You'd have to take a deeper look into what they've been through at the hands of humanity individually.

In Storms case she was referring to the psychos form Orchis that were trying to kill them. The wording could have been a bit better sure, but I think her statement was made clear when put into context.

Just remember that the first law of Krakoa was kill no man. That's not something you'd expect from a people that have disowned another people.

I do understand, believe me; I've lived it with them and experienced it through their eyes. It's devastating, it's heart-breaking, I understand it as well as I understand my own traumas.

However, no; none of what Storm said was clear. She referred to "man." Not to "These men," but "Man," in the most broad sense. There was no outright distinction, coupled with the severity and clinical nature (for her, but that's Hickman's issue) in which she spoke gave the impression that she now thinks little of humanity as a whole. That she's given up on them completely despite still having those who adore her and worship her on high--that was the nuance of Storm. That she's truly tested by the worst but is able to draw back and offer compassion and protection to the best. So far, we haven't seen that in the X-line itself from her; she seems much more vicious and less strategic than past characterisations.

Additionally, "kill no man" is a good law. It sets a moral precedent. But just like any law or religious edict, it's up to the individual how they interpret it: a racist might not kill a man because it's against the law, but it doesn't stop them viewing them with contempt. That's the vibe I and others are getting: that the compassion is gone, indiscriminately for some. That the more harmful attitudes from Magneto are the most popular on the island (if the group that surrounds him from X-Men #1 are anything to go by: "Tell us how you defeated the humans!").

[JB]

Last but not least for you Mr. pk - little Sapna. A young mutant girl from India. Note the torching of her village to get her. Her parents tried to protect her but this massive mob was closing in. Thankfully Illyana showed up.

Then we have Storm letting Jean see what's been going on while she tried being a normal student.




In instances like this, it's not just the perpetrators but it's the other people, such as the government, doing nothing about it that are the problem. The mutants had to make a stand to make all of this stop and they're still fighting and still getting invaded on Krakoa.

And sorry for scanning so much and inundating the thread, I just felt it needed to be shown. In fact we can start a whole thread on the crimes against mutants but I, and it seems many others, are ready to move on from all of that.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

I said Xavier, Magneto, and the audience. And while the ‘audience’ thing can be contended, she definitely wasn’t lying to the other two. She doesn’t completely lack empathy so she probably knew how sad it would be for her loved ones, but she’s juggling the fate of mutantkind. She’s gonna make tough decisions.

I understand your perspective: but it still feels very manipulative, especially in regards to how she's stated she wants to "break" Charles. (But, 'sad', that's underselling it a bit isn't it? More like traumatic? Especially considering everything that she needed to happen and put in place to make it so?)

I still think she could lying to Charles and Magneto. It's not definite: but we don't know if she has given the full picture until stated. But then, that is an interesting point as to the level of trust we, as readers, really do extend to these characters and why.

May I ask: Why do you trust Moira? What makes you think she has laid all her cards out on the table?

(Again, also, not trying to sway your opinion: just a discussion! Let's see your perspective!)

[loke13]

Passive commentary dotted about since HOX/POX. Off the top of my head:

"Humans, is there any good in them?" --Lorna Davis

"A little dose of humanity to go with her humanity." "Let's get them out of those human clothes" --Emma Frost

Everything Magneto/Erik says when addressing anyone isn't a mutant, including comments about about religion, belief, institutions, ect from HOX #1. I can't list all that here, dude, I'm sorry.

"Human ideologies and institutions were never meant for something better" -- Dani Moonstar

"Man should know when he is beaten--he should know to break and run...or surrender and ask for unearned mercy..."--Ororo Munroe

Yikes. Well I can understand the characters of Lorna and Magneto both decrying humanity but maybe the other characters weren't disowning Humanity but rather harshly critiquing the corrupt institutions and ideologies that some humans hold?

[JB]

Yikes. Well I can understand the characters of Lorna and Magneto both decrying humanity but maybe the other characters weren't disowning Humanity but rather harshly critiquing the corrupt institutions and ideologies that some humans hold?

In context, such as in the above scans, I totally get what they're saying.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Yikes. Well I can understand the characters of Lorna and Magneto both decrying humanity but maybe the other characters weren't disowning Humanity but rather harshly critiquing the corrupt institutions and ideologies that some humans hold?

That in itself is an interesting topic though: Dani's still wearing her Cheyenne clothing as she says this. It's part of her culture, the human one anyway, if human ideologies aren't meant for something better and she is critiquing only that, wouldn't that extend to her cultural wear? Why/why not?

Additionally: Storm's broader language makes it difficult to discern whether or not she was talking about humans as a whole or just those one's in particular. The use of "Man" instead of "These men" can mean very different things.

And what of Emma and her phrasing, do you think?

(Again, to clarify: this is a discussion thread meant for everyone to see each other's side. We're not going to convince each other, but we don't have to fight! Also prepare for probing questions, sorry!)

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

In context, such as in the above scans, I totally get what they're saying.

Now, I'm a reader who actually does need help with this: I struggle to properly contextualise information at times. May I ask: how?

(And I know, hell of a question, but any insight is appreciated! C'mon, help a disabled gal out!)



Edit: Actually, scratch the first question--a better one: What do those quotes communicate to you? Might be easier to start from there!