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  1. #406
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So I guess this is the million dollar question: normal talk or not for the characters mentioned (except Dani, which I'll get to in a sec,) is it discriminatory in and of itself? It comes from trauma, anger and pain, yes, but is it fair? Should their views be the one's rightfully glorified about the island, in your opinion? Should humans as a whole be looked down upon with such disdain and should we, as the audience, agree? Is it not hypocritical, at all, in your opinion?

    Dani's an interesting case though: as a character, she's fiercely proud of both her Cheyenne and Valkyrie heritage. Though she talks disparagingly about human ideologies, she's still wearing her cultural clothing (or, at least, still incorporates it as part of her costume/clothing)--is that appropriate? If she's lost faith in humanity, does her wearing Cheyenne elements not seem distasteful?
    It's tricky because there are words and there are actions. Would any of them enslave a human and abuse them for kicks? Most likely not. These were things said to people they trust. Would they say these things in a speech to Krakoa as a whole? Probably not, except for Erik of course. But even he calmed down that mutant child who was getting all worked up and said he wanted to fight. So no, I don't think any of it is being glorified on Krakoa.

    As for Dani, the best way I can relate is with my home country. A ton of corruption, lots of crime, cheating and stealing. But I love who I am and where I come from, and I wouldn't throw away my own cultural items because I don't agree with the direction of the government, you know? Plus that's assuming Cheyenne history only includes humans - maybe there were some mutants too.
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  2. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    It's tricky because there are words and there are actions. Would any of them enslave a human and abuse them for kicks? Most likely not. These were things said to people they trust. Would they say these things in a speech to Krakoa as a whole? Probably not, except for Erik of course. But even he calmed down that mutant child who was getting all worked up and said he wanted to fight. So no, I don't think any of it is being glorified on Krakoa.

    As for Dani, the best way I can relate is with my home country. A ton of corruption, lots of crime, cheating and stealing. But I love who I am and where I come from, and I wouldn't throw away my own cultural items because I don't agree with the direction of the government, you know? Plus that's assuming Cheyenne history only includes humans - maybe there were some mutants too.
    (I mean, Apocalypse would. Shaw has a sadistic history. Erik might not say no.) Plus, based on their attitudes towards even human allies; is that trust still there? Do they even still regard them as friends or are they just being polite? Problematic attitudes can still be perpetuated and even glorified without action--quiet racism, after all, you know the kind that happens in whispers? (Which, can I clarify, I do not support and should be shut down irl.) Aren't words just as harmful as actions? In terms of what they can perpetuate, that is?

    But Dani's still talking about a human ideology, a religion which, as far as Erik's concerned, mutants have risen above? There may very well have been Cheyenne mutants--not gonna argue that at all--but given that mutants weren't known or 'out' at the time, and that they may not even be accepted in Dani's own tribe (we don't know! Not saying that's a definite either way!) it's still a very 'human' construct?

  3. #408
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Ah, so that scene is from the Mists run. That whole run was basically the entire world trying to out-crimes-against-humanity the mutants. They were probably aiming for something comparable with the AIDS crisis the misinformation spread and used to discriminate against LGBT people. I didn't read many comics back then, so I'm assuming we weren't getting a bunch of scene of people on TV pointing out it only affects mutants, only Fox News types spreading fear?

  4. #409
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    That does strike me as a bit hypocritical though, considering they're supposed to be 'above it all'? I'm also wondering if there doesn't seem to be any incentive for such talk not to continue? Or if it'll begin to 'evolve' in a way in reactions to events?
    Only if its symptomatic of a greater change in behavior. As I said its a question of context. People, even in comics aren't emotionally/psychologically black and white. We all have thoughts, emotions and feelings of both great benevolence and great malevolence. Expressing exasperation even disgust after yet another horror isn't out of bounds, its the actions that follow that define you. Switching gears a bit it also serves a Narrative purpose, highlighting societal differences between mutant and human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'm not seeing it actually coming to an end, is what I'm saying. That's a worrying prospect, you see, given the lack of compassion it often affords? It feels very black and white?
    The problem is that there isn't evidence for this right now. You're painting with too broad a brush, it can lead to a lack of compassion but by no means must it. It could just as easily be nothing more than an excited utterance designed to convey the weariness with the conflict in the face of continuing horrors. Has Storm followed her comment up with any even remotely dismissive or aggressive action towards humanity? Have any of them? Until we see worrying action to back up vague words I'm not concerned. There are far too many just as viable alternative explanations that don't indicate malfeasance by the X-Men.

  5. #410
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    (I mean, Apocalypse would. Shaw has a sadistic history. Erik might not say no.) Plus, based on their attitudes towards even human allies; is that trust still there? Do they even still regard them as friends or are they just being polite? Problematic attitudes can still be perpetuated and even glorified without action--quiet racism, after all, you know the kind that happens in whispers? (Which, can I clarify, I do not support and should be shut down irl.) Aren't words just as harmful as actions? In terms of what they can perpetuate, that is?

    But Dani's still talking about a human ideology, a religion which, as far as Erik's concerned, mutants have risen above? There may very well have been Cheyenne mutants--not gonna argue that at all--but given that mutants weren't known or 'out' at the time, and that they may not even be accepted in Dani's own tribe (we don't know! Not saying that's a definite either way!) it's still a very 'human' construct?
    I meant more like words between friends/family. But I don't think even Erik would impose his ideals and beliefs on the other mutants, you know what I mean? He stands strong in what he believes in and won't hesitate to tell you, but he seems totally on board with the Quiet Council and making decisions as a group. So that answer can go along with the Dani situation - he may feel they have risen above religion but he wouldn't try to force Dani to feel the same way.
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  6. #411
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Ah, so that scene is from the Mists run. That whole run was basically the entire world trying to out-crimes-against-humanity the mutants. They were probably aiming for something comparable with the AIDS crisis the misinformation spread and used to discriminate against LGBT people. I didn't read many comics back then, so I'm assuming we weren't getting a bunch of scene of people on TV pointing out it only affects mutants, only Fox News types spreading fear?
    Yeah that's when things started to really spiral down. Then it only got worse once the X-Men "died" during Disassembled and the hateful humans greatly turned it up ten notches. As for what was playing on the news or similar scenes, that I don't recall if anyone else wants to chime in? It was just an ugly time.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  7. #412
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    I wish we got more from the perspective of the Morlocks and animal-people mutants. There's this weird disconnect with the dichotomy of mutants, where they are both powerful enough to end the world several times over but also weak enough to be rounded up and killed by the dozens by random strangers with guns. In all of those instances, did nobody have a kind of power that could help in that situation? Then you have people like Magneto proclaiming them to be superior and the next stage of humanity. If a majority of mutants are just people with weird skin conditions, then the Magneto-types look like idiots who have no idea what they're talking about.

  8. #413

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Yeah that's when things started to really spiral down. Then it only got worse once the X-Men "died" during Disassembled and the hateful humans greatly turned it up ten notches. As for what was playing on the news or similar scenes, that I don't recall if anyone else wants to chime in? It was just an ugly time.
    This coincided with the o5's presence so, actually, yes! Along college campuses there were pro-mutant rallies and calls for acceptance and even a short narrative that challenged the idea of, like, how someone might like the idea of progress without really understanding what that means until they encounter someone who's living through it face-to-face! There were pockets of support, small as they might be!

    Also, I actually saw a fair bit of hope in that time? It was uncertain and problematic, but?

  9. #414
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Yeah that's when things started to really spiral down. Then it only got worse once the X-Men "died" during Disassembled and the hateful humans greatly turned it up ten notches. As for what was playing on the news or similar scenes, that I don't recall if anyone else wants to chime in? It was just an ugly time.
    They should have brought back Sublime or had Cassandra Nova be responsible for the laser-targeted extreme hatred of mutants. The Inhumans had some thrown their way at the time, but no where near the same amount. Unlike mutants, the Inhumans were actively responsible for forcing people to change into them with the Terrigen bomb. Its a really bizarre situation and some really terrible writing.

  10. #415
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So you guys would say that the phrasing isn't helping how you perceive this? How do you feel about this?
    I will say that the perspective of world on x-men comics (usa comics in general, specially big 2, but x-men i sthe focus here) is all about United States. Human culture is rich and very diverse

  11. #416

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I will say that the perspective of world on x-men comics (usa comics in general, specially big 2, but x-men i sthe focus here) is all about United States. Human culture is rich and very diverse
    As I'm sure most X-Men would usually agree seeing as...well, they came from all walks of life. It's interesting to think that we haven't gotten more of a broader scope in that respect? But then, the narrative does feel a bit narrow anyway in it's approach to the whole argument?

  12. #417
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I will say that the perspective of world on x-men comics (usa comics in general, specially big 2, but x-men i sthe focus here) is all about United States. Human culture is rich and very diverse
    That's why I posted a few scenes from different places, India and I forget where Kurt was when he was shown that grave but he wasn't in the U.S.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  13. #418
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I wish we got more from the perspective of the Morlocks and animal-people mutants. There's this weird disconnect with the dichotomy of mutants, where they are both powerful enough to end the world several times over but also weak enough to be rounded up and killed by the dozens by random strangers with guns. In all of those instances, did nobody have a kind of power that could help in that situation? Then you have people like Magneto proclaiming them to be superior and the next stage of humanity. If a majority of mutants are just people with weird skin conditions, then the Magneto-types look like idiots who have no idea what they're talking about.
    We must remember that the school also helped mutants use and control their powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    This coincided with the o5's presence so, actually, yes! Along college campuses there were pro-mutant rallies and calls for acceptance and even a short narrative that challenged the idea of, like, how someone might like the idea of progress without really understanding what that means until they encounter someone who's living through it face-to-face! There were pockets of support, small as they might be!

    Also, I actually saw a fair bit of hope in that time? It was uncertain and problematic, but?
    That whole era was a hot mess!
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  14. #419
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Wow this thread been blowing up. Checked through past pages, found two things in particular wanted to respond to

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Passive commentary dotted about since HOX/POX. Off the top of my head:

    "Humans, is there any good in them?" --Lorna Davis

    "A little dose of humanity to go with her humanity." "Let's get them out of those human clothes" --Emma Frost

    Everything Magneto/Erik says when addressing anyone isn't a mutant, including comments about about religion, belief, institutions, ect from HOX #1. I can't list all that here, dude, I'm sorry.

    "Human ideologies and institutions were never meant for something better" -- Dani Moonstar

    "Man should know when he is beaten--he should know to break and run...or surrender and ask for unearned mercy..."--Ororo Munroe
    Really good observations. It really does seem like Hickman is going "over the top" to try to make mutants and Krakoa feel "distinct" from human civilization and embrace the idea of "Mutant Pride" and all that... which CAN sound somewhat villainous or like crossing over into "Mutant Supremacy" to some ears, depending. Although events since those quotes (as other posters pointed out) have served to tamp things down/muddy and blur the original sharpness (besides Magneto, who has indeed kept it going although somewhat more modulated than in his more overtly villainous eras).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Moira hasn’t been lying to Xavier, Magneto, or the audience. Her power is that she’s restarted the 616 so these aren’t alternate realities or reality warps, she’s doing Groundhog’s Day. Moira’s out to break Xavier because following his dream just leads them to this:

    That doesn't necessarily follow.... again explain the "villain coding" Moira is given, notably my avatar among other things. I think it's a bit naive to just assume Moira has no psychological oddities from her experiences and is being totally transparent. MAYBE but honestly that's kind of boring. or even if Moira isn't necessarily deceiving X/M the lengths she may be willing to go to , etc etc. come into play. (I mean just read through those data page "Journal Entries" of hers. It definitely does sound like she HAS BEEN deceiving/controlling both Xavier and Mags...)
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 01-15-2020 at 08:06 PM.
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  15. #420

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Wow this thread been blowing up. Checked through past pages, found two things in particular wanted to respond to



    Really good observations. It really does seem like Hickman is going "over the top" to try to make mutants and Krakoa feel "distinct" from human civilization and embrace the idea of "Mutant Pride" and all that... which CAN sound somewhat villainous or like crossing over into "Mutant Supremacy" to some ears, depending. Although events since those quotes (as other posters pointed out) have served to tamp things down/muddy and blur the original sharpness (besides Magneto, who has indeed kept it going although somewhat more modulated than in his more overtly villainous eras).



    That doesn't necessarily follow.... again explain the "villain coding" Moira is given, notably my avatar among other things. I think it's a bit naive to just assume Moira has no psychological oddities from her experiences and is being totally transparent. MAYBE but honestly that's kind of boring. or even if Moira isn't necessarily deceiving X/M the lengths she may be willing to go to , etc etc. come into play. (I mean just read through those data page "Journal Entries" of hers. It definitely does sound like she HAS BEEN deceiving/controlling both Xavier and Mags...)
    Thankyou! That's some really great insight into Moira! Can I ask, for the sake of discussion; what about her seems untrustworthy to you? Or leads you to suspect she might not be being totally transparent? (Either in narrative or from a speculative stand point? If that makes sense?)

    Also, can I pry a bit more as to your first quote highlighted? As to the efforts Hickman appears to be going through to separate mutants from their human counterparts? How do you feel about that? Where do you think it's standing? Is it going into supremacy territory, do you think? Or, if not, how have you seen it muddied and blurred?


    (Again, just in the interest of discussion, not fighting! Really just trying to see what everyone's perspectives are and stuff!)

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