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  1. #421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    That whole era was a hot mess!
    Bite your tongue! Those teens were the best incarnation of those characters I've ever seen!

    Seriously: They really seemed to evolved the characters on an emotional level. Putting them back at "square one" wasn't a regression, not really but a really good chance for them to gain a bit of introspection; they had the unique opportunity to step back and see themselves as others see them. Scott especially seemed to grow in emotional maturity/intelligence; he allowed himself to step out of his boundaries which, for a character like him, is not easy. Trust me, I've a bit of experience on that. And Jean! Ah man, Jean! She grew! Just as a character, seeing her in a leading role? Taking charge, really putting her own intuitive nature to use on a practical level! She questioned, but was never defeated! Ah she was almost up there with Batgirl in my faves before they sent them back.

    Now only Hank and Bobby are likeable. Other two walk around like they joined a cult.

    So, yeah, as a reader I suppose I appreciate more character driven things, especially on a smaller scale. Those story-lines resonate more with me than bigger, grander one's. Often I find them a bit pretentious actually?

  2. #422
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    So you guys would say that the phrasing isn't helping how you perceive this? How do you feel about this?
    America-centrism is pretty dominant in American media for obvious reasons, but the problem is that X-Men have had an international focus since Claremont, and we specifically had ambassadors from different countries with varying views on Krakoa in the literal first issue of this run, so painting humanity in one red white and blue brush makes it seem like Krakoa is treating entire countries and cultures as the same, which enforces the "us vs them" mentality.

  3. #423

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    America-centrism is pretty dominant in American media for obvious reasons, but the problem is that X-Men have had an international focus since Claremont, and we specifically had ambassadors from different countries with varying views on Krakoa in the literal first issue of this run, so painting humanity in one red white and blue brush makes it seem like Krakoa is treating entire countries and cultures as the same, which enforces the "us vs them" mentality.
    And how do you feel about the "Us VS Them" Mentality that you see?

    (Again, just for discussion; this is the thread to lay it all out so we can see where we're all coming from!)

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Thankyou! That's some really great insight into Moira! Can I ask, for the sake of discussion; what about her seems untrustworthy to you? Or leads you to suspect she might not be being totally transparent? (Either in narrative or from a speculative stand point? If that makes sense?)

    Also, can I pry a bit more as to your first quote highlighted? As to the efforts Hickman appears to be going through to separate mutants from their human counterparts? How do you feel about that? Where do you think it's standing? Is it going into supremacy territory, do you think? Or, if not, how have you seen it muddied and blurred?


    (Again, just in the interest of discussion, not fighting! Really just trying to see what everyone's perspectives are and stuff!)
    Why is Moira untrustworthy to me.

    Well, she experienced 9 quite varied, some extremely traumatizing, and two which were VERY lengthy, lives. Tycon mentioned the movie Groundhog Day. Go watch the film if you haven't... the central character definitely goes through some psychological disorders as the events continue. (Ultimately of course he lives a "perfectly ordinary and caring" day which ends the cycle but I don't see something like that applying to Moira). My point being she seems extremely jaded and cynical by her 10th life.

    The journal entries of hers we were shown in data pages reinforce the concept she is using Xavier and Mags (and others).

    The fact she is utterly hidden from mutantkind but is able to freely go as she pleases.

    there's just so much that makes her seem like a classic "Mastermind" type character. Now, do I believe she might just genuinely have like PTSD from everything and be broken by despair from what the posthuman said etc? Sure and that's probably a better nuance for her character than just "This bitch be hidin sumpin". But that doesn't mean she isn't very deceitful in-universe even if we as readers essentially understand her perspective and long-term goals. It's still a question of what she'll do for those goals and it seems like the answer is "Almost anything". WHich is a good recipe for drama and conflict.

    I answered before I consider it a negative the way mutants are self-segregating this way. It feels to me like giving up on their efforts at integration into human society. It's basically sounding like weakness more than strength to me. And I know it can't last because to too many fans the central theme of X-Men is "fighting for those who hate and fear you anyway". There's no way Krakoa is a sustainable thing over time, and it's entirely possible Hickman's big plot is about making Krakoa SEEM appealing (to some fans) early on but eventually making it feel untenable/wrong. Many fans push back on that premise but it could be where Hickman is going.

    I do think a lot of the Krakoa haters are jumping the shark when they assert mutants view humanity as evil or mutants are planning to conquer the world. Nothing of the sort is suggested at least thus far. Mutants just seem to want to live in their own "safe space"/new country, and they're trading with human countries and liberating captive mutants from them but that's about it. So to my mind it's not quite "Supremacy". Of course, folks like Apocalypse and Exodus may view it that way! And they're certainly part of Krakoa.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  5. #425
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    As I'm sure most X-Men would usually agree seeing as...well, they came from all walks of life. It's interesting to think that we haven't gotten more of a broader scope in that respect? But then, the narrative does feel a bit narrow anyway in it's approach to the whole argument?
    It's a human vs Mutants, and the case is for humans being white western men. Yeah, it is pretty narrow and not very complex.
    Hulk war isn't with humanity, it is with big corporations

  6. #426

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Why is Moira untrustworthy to me.

    Well, she experienced 9 quite varied, some extremely traumatizing, and two which were VERY lengthy, lives. Tycon mentioned the movie Groundhog Day. Go watch the film if you haven't... the central character definitely goes through some psychological disorders as the events continue. (Ultimately of course he lives a "perfectly ordinary and caring" day which ends the cycle but I don't see something like that applying to Moira). My point being she seems extremely jaded and cynical by her 10th life.

    The journal entries of hers we were shown in data pages reinforce the concept she is using Xavier and Mags (and others).

    The fact she is utterly hidden from mutantkind but is able to freely go as she pleases.

    there's just so much that makes her seem like a classic "Mastermind" type character. Now, do I believe she might just genuinely have like PTSD from everything and be broken by despair from what the posthuman said etc? Sure and that's probably a better nuance for her character than just "This bitch be hidin sumpin". But that doesn't mean she isn't very deceitful in-universe even if we as readers essentially understand her perspective and long-term goals. It's still a question of what she'll do for those goals and it seems like the answer is "Almost anything". WHich is a good recipe for drama and conflict.

    I answered before I consider it a negative the way mutants are self-segregating this way. It feels to me like giving up on their efforts at integration into human society. It's basically sounding like weakness more than strength to me. And I know it can't last because to too many fans the central theme of X-Men is "fighting for those who hate and fear you anyway". There's no way Krakoa is a sustainable thing over time, and it's entirely possible Hickman's big plot is about making Krakoa SEEM appealing (to some fans) early on but eventually making it feel untenable/wrong. Many fans push back on that premise but it could be where Hickman is going.

    I do think a lot of the Krakoa haters are jumping the shark when they assert mutants view humanity as evil or mutants are planning to conquer the world. Nothing of the sort is suggested at least thus far. Mutants just seem to want to live in their own "safe space"/new country, and they're trading with human countries and liberating captive mutants from them but that's about it. So to my mind it's not quite "Supremacy". Of course, folks like Apocalypse and Exodus may view it that way! And they're certainly part of Krakoa
    .
    Well see, that's fascinating to me: that's an extremely nuanced view! Please, feel free to expand on it if you feel like it! I'd love to hear more about how you view mutants attitudes in regard to humanity, in particular!

    (Of course, please don't feel as if I'm pressuring you! It just really is fascinating to me, I struggle a lot!)

  7. #427

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It's a human vs Mutants, and the case is for humans being white western men. Yeah, it is pretty narrow and not very complex.
    Hulk war isn't with humanity, it is with big corporations
    And, for the sake of discussion; how does that make you feel about the whole thing?

  8. #428
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    And, for the sake of discussion; how does that make you feel about the whole thing?
    I think it feels forced. Mutants are tring to control the world instead of destroying capitalism and brining a new age for both mutants and humans.
    They should try to smash capitalism

  9. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I think it feels forced. Mutants are tring to control the world instead of destroying capitalism and brining a new age for both mutants and humans.
    They should try to smash capitalism
    Hey, that's a new view I don't think I've heard! Nice one! So go on; how might they do that?

  10. #430
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well see, that's fascinating to me: that's an extremely nuanced view! Please, feel free to expand on it if you feel like it! I'd love to hear more about how you view mutants attitudes in regard to humanity, in particular!

    (Of course, please don't feel as if I'm pressuring you! It just really is fascinating to me, I struggle a lot!)
    Ok well. I feel like the Genosha experiment is a noble one but it shouldn't be THE ONLY WAY for all of mutants right? And especially this ties into why people think there is a lot of "Out of Character" stuff. Nightcrawler, Jean, Beast would NEVER be ok with Krakoa. Never. It's insane to think otherwise truly. There need to be some "Classic Good" characters in these books. I'm ALL FOR exploring moral greys believe me, and for offering alternative philosophical approaches. But it can't be a super abrupt thing where you make EVERY freaking character 100% on board with it suddenly. That's just nuts lol.

    I much prefer there being alternative models for mutants,

    "Integration/ Assimilation/ Tolerance/ Co existence/ Peace/ Slow Gradual Mutual Understanding/ Typical Heroics" - Xavierism in a nutshell. Has many issues to it and status quos show those issues but it has some simple appeal to it also and there is a reason people generally accept this for the main point of view

    "Isolationism/ Live and Let Live/ Build Pure Mutant Culture/ Power of Example" - Most associated with Magneto. Idea mutants should go off and do their own thing and just be separated from humans. Build the mutant homeland and prosper independently.

    "Conquest/ Take Over Everything/ Evolution Acceleration/ Victory is All" - The Apocalypse mentality also shared to some degree and at different times by Exodus, Magneto (when written poorly), Selene, etc

    "Who Cares About Humanity or Mutantkind Anyway/ Make Your Money/ Live That Best Life" - Emma Frost and Mystique variations, Emma's is more orderly and organized, Mystique's more about individualism. Could argue Mr Sinister has a version of this mindset also but more about understanding science or promoting experiments to advance that understanding.

    To me that's a broader selection of ideologies different books could go in depth towards. More plausible than ALL MUTANTS agreed on just one model.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  11. #431
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I like the concept better than the execution tbh. It's lost me already, I preferred HoX and PoX much better.

    I'll probably come back when Hickman's done with his story. His stories read better in big omnibuses because he's all about long-form storytelling.
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

  12. #432
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I think it feels forced. Mutants are tring to control the world instead of destroying capitalism and brining a new age for both mutants and humans.
    They should try to smash capitalism
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Hey, that's a new view I don't think I've heard! Nice one! So go on; how might they do that?
    Hulk is actually doing that fairly well in his series. Laser targeted attacks on the things that corporations actually value and use. Specifically, he attacked the transmission and data center for the Roxxon corporation, which shut down their entire social and television empire for weeks and devastated their bottom line.

    My problem with Moira mainly stems from not using the Groundhog's Day concept well. Its also a bit sexist, I think? Basically, she has had 9 lives. 2 lives didn't amount to anything, so that leaves 7. 7 attempts isn't nearly enough to make her into some kind of all-knowing doomsayer on the issue, especially given how many alternate futures we've seen in the Marvel universe. We don't even know what exactly went wrong in most of them. Some of them could have even had mutants survive after she, personally, died, if it weren't for her universe-ending power. Edge of Tomorrow and Madoka Magica did this concept, but had the protagonist try this hundreds, if not thousands of times. When they break down and say things like 'this is the only way' it carries a lot more weight.

    With Edge of Tomorrow and Madoka Magica, the time loops had a specific purpose for characters to overcome. End an alien invasion, and keep one specific person alive when an apocalyptic monster attacks at the end of the month, respectively. Moira's goal is 'mutant survival', but she's including surviving thousands of years into the future, which is so far removed from what's going on now that it almost doesn't matter.

    And I say 'sexist' because her life decisions are based around the men in her life. She follow Xavier twice, Magneto once and Apocalypse once. The only lives where she makes her own decisions removed from the big men of the mutant world is the one where Destiny killed her early and the one she tried to wipe out the Trask family. That life and her sixth life we know almost nothing about, so her upcoming series might solve some of these problems for me.

  13. #433
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    What gives you this impression, if you don't mind me asking? Have your experiences influenced this at all (Which, I want to clarify, holds no bearing on how valid your opinion may be!)
    Well, X-men stories have always been about the mutants claiming that despite they have strange powers, they were human and should be treated as such: we are the same, we have the same rights.
    And, indeed, years and years, issue after issue, X-men readers have had proofs that it was true: the mutants weren't different from humans. They loved, they die (that was before), they suffer… in what important, there was no difference.
    I was told that the mutants have been persecuted, slaughtered… Thinking about it, I have no qualms that the mutants have their own haven where they can feel secure. Normal…
    So, my dislike is not about the existence of Krakoa as a concept (even if the mutants rely too much about Krakoa for my taste, what are they without this strange creature…) but it is that the mutants consider themselves separated from humanity. A sort of "You consider me as a monster? Well, ok, I'm a monster". No regret about a lost dream, no speech about saying that separation will be only temporary… a language? a culture? Why? And also because it is not true: they are not separated.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I will say that the perspective of world on x-men comics (usa comics in general, specially big 2, but x-men i sthe focus here) is all about United States. Human culture is rich and very diverse
    Israël has been quoted as an inspiration for this run, but now I'm thinking about the birth of the USA. Coming there, people have found a empty territory (sorry, Native Americans…) and wanted to create their society. Often, but not always, these people have been persecuted. So I think it's true: Hickman's run is, culturally, American (as the Americans thought of themselves at first and so it is the nostalgia of the beginning). And although, X-men, the comic, is read around the world, it is not received in the same way depending on the culture. I, personally, miss the internationalism.

  14. #434
    Fantastic Member Starfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Israël has been quoted as an inspiration for this run, but now I'm thinking about the birth of the USA.
    The recruitment of former villains because they might be of use to the X-Men reminds me of Operation Paperclip.

  15. #435
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post

    Israël has been quoted as an inspiration for this run, but now I'm thinking about the birth of the USA. Coming there, people have found a empty territory (sorry, Native Americans…) and wanted to create their society. Often, but not always, these people have been persecuted. So I think it's true: Hickman's run is, culturally, American (as the Americans thought of themselves at first and so it is the nostalgia of the beginning). And although, X-men, the comic, is read around the world, it is not received in the same way depending on the culture. I, personally, miss the internationalism.
    Both Israel and colonization of USA were done by persecuted people, who then became opressors

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