What do you like/dislike about Krakoa? (As a concept)

[CoCoBandz]

That plays into my 'cynical optimism' thinking. To me, it doesn't feel like the M-Days are over. In fact it feels like things are doubling down on that kind of story. Mutants are now so hated everywhere in the entire world they don't feel safe anywhere BUT Krakoa. Its feels like a common sentiment on this board is that mutants all basically get hatecrimed if they ever step outside of Krakoa, and that's just how terrible the world is for mutants. Nothing that Xavier is doing seems to be correcting that. We only have 1 data page restricted story making it look like people give even the slightest damn about mutants now. Almost every story running now is about humans trying to genocide the mutants. Far from putting those stories behind us, it seems like that's the only story they can tell now.

There are cults of people who worship mutants. Rich and poor.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

That plays into my 'cynical optimism' thinking. To me, it doesn't feel like the M-Days are over. In fact it feels like things are doubling down on that kind of story. Mutants are now so hated everywhere in the entire world they don't feel safe anywhere BUT Krakoa. Its feels like a common sentiment on this board is that mutants all basically get hatecrimed if they ever step outside of Krakoa, and that's just how terrible the world is for mutants. Nothing that Xavier is doing seems to be correcting that. We only have 1 data page restricted story making it look like people give even the slightest damn about mutants now. Almost every story running now is about humans trying to genocide the mutants. Far from putting those stories behind us, it seems like that's the only story they can tell now.

No, that is a good point; would you say fan reaction affects your reading of these events at all? Or, even just the interpretation of events? Do you find it difficult to identify any optimism because of the things you've mentioned here?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

There are cults of people who worship mutants. Rich and poor.

How do you feel about those cults? (Seriously answers only, please; this is designed hopefully to facilitate discussion and build bridges between users and their POV's.)

[pkingdom]

No, that is a good point; would you say fan reaction affects your reading of these events at all? Or, even just the interpretation of events? Do you find it difficult to identify any optimism because of the things you've mentioned here?

How do you feel about those cults? (Seriously answers only, please; this is designed hopefully to facilitate discussion and build bridges between users and their POV's.)

Fan reaction hasn't helped. But its not just the story being dominated by genocide (that's sadly not new). I say 'cynical optimism' because the take away from the 'all-knowing' Moira is that that is inevitable. And that its pointless for mutants to try to coexists. She is saying, and Xavier either agreed then or agrees now, that it was all for nothing. It was a mistake to try, and it was all doomed. And everyone is jumping for joy now that they've finally given up.

As for the cults, I don't see how they're a good thing. Mentally ill people seeing mutants as gods because a voice in their heads declared mutants are the future. That's horrifying, and I hope to see the saner X-men trying to do something about it. Its another example of the kind of thinking the bad guys used to revel in.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Fan reaction hasn't helped. But its not just the story being dominated by genocide (that's sadly not new). I say 'cynical optimism' because the take away from the 'all-knowing' Moira is that that is inevitable. And that its pointless for mutants to try to coexists. She is saying, and Xavier either agreed then or agrees now, that it was all for nothing. It was a mistake to try, and it was all doomed. And everyone is jumping for joy now that they've finally given up.

As for the cults, I don't see how they're a good thing. Mentally ill people seeing mutants as gods because a voice in their heads declared mutants are the future. That's horrifying, and I hope to see the saner X-men trying to do something about it. Its another example of the kind of thinking the bad guys used to revel in.

Can I ask, how does other fan's reactions affect your reading, if at all?

So it's suspension of disbelief, is what you're saying? If Moira says it's hopeless then, really, why keep trying? And yes, I agree; Moira can be seen as quite a bullying figure in this scenario. Do you feel her 're-contextualisation' has harmed the narratives which came before? Do you feel this doesn't so much enrich those past storylines but, maybe, render them invalid or false?

I definitely have to agree with the cult thing too. It isn't a healthy approach, but we've seen others point out that it's a form of mutant acceptance--what are your thoughts on that?

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It's because you simply believe that just because there is a will then everything will be fine.

What if one of these familiar humans is an undercover agent?

And if one of those family or friend human is killed by a mutant in Krakoa for have lost a relative or friend in a attack for Sentinels or Purifiers ? And a revolt begins?

What if most mutants in krakoa don't want humans there?

What if these humans living in Krakoa start to be treated badly by the mutants?

Again, it's too early to try something so dangerous. Krakoa has not even been accepted as a nation by every country in the world and you already want to make exceptions and humans in their borders even after successive attacks and deaths on the island.

--I'm not sure what you mean by the first point, sorry?

But, as a reader, you'd say you see both sides to the argument seeing as you seem to show concern for the humans in this hypothetical scenario? You still see nuance despite the polarising stance in the narrative?

[pkingdom]

Can I ask, how does other fan's reactions affect your reading, if at all?

So it's suspension of disbelief, is what you're saying? If Moira says it's hopeless then, really, why keep trying? And yes, I agree; Moira can be seen as quite a bullying figure in this scenario. Do you feel her 're-contextualisation' has harmed the narratives which came before? Do you feel this doesn't so much enrich those past storylines but, maybe, render them invalid or false?

I definitely have to agree with the cult thing too. It isn't a healthy approach, but we've seen others point out that it's a form of mutant acceptance--what are your thoughts on that?

It renders every heroic speech to the contrary made by every mutant hero in the history of the X-men empty and meaningless. They're simply wrong. And the message of the current run is that they will finally find happiness when they realize that. They used to say things like they know Trask doesn't speak for everyone, and now they say they can't tell the bad humans from the good.

If the people of Krakoa think its a good thing that people are worshiping them, then they are evil. Full stop. That is not acceptance. Worship is very different then acceptance, respect and tolerance. Its literally a lesson the X-men used to be used to teach.

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

It renders every heroic speech to the contrary made by every mutant hero in the history of the X-men empty and meaningless. They're simply wrong. And the message of the current run is that they will finally find happiness when they realize that. They used to say things like they know Trask doesn't speak for everyone, and now they say they can't tell the bad humans from the good.

If the people of Krakoa think its a good thing that people are worshiping them, then they are evil. Full stop. That is not acceptance. Worship is very different then acceptance, respect and tolerance. Its literally a lesson the X-men used to be used to teach.

That is a good point, it is hypocritical; but others have mentioned that escalating stakes made that an impossible stance to hold? What do you think of that?

I agree, definitely; that isn't genuine acceptance, that's bordering on subjugation.

[GodfatherIV]

Well that's really intriguing! So, do you feel uncomfortable with the idea of a 'person' basically being a habitat, as it were? Or do you feel that this concept is so similar to the Genoshan one that it might be better served there? If so, how?

Basically a bit of both. But in general I always felt that the idea of Krakoa wasnt executed all that well from the start

[Domino_Dare-Doll]

Basically a bit of both. But in general I always felt that the idea of Krakoa wasnt executed all that well from the start

Really? How so? What hindered the experience, in your opinion?

[Tycon]

And when he grows up to wander about among mutantkind? What do you feel should happen? Will he still be seen as a threat, somehow, to those he'll grow up around?

But you've said yourself that anti-mutant crime in the human world is hardly dealt with as it needs to be? What if they, too, don't feel safe outside back in the human world, in case those perpetrators come back? What if the mutant is somehow disabled, even, and the parents are the carers they feel comfortable with?

Where do you think they fit in to the Krakoan concept?

No because bigotry is learned and he’s being enveloped in mutant culture, his mom’s even a mutant.

Crimes against mutants hardly get dealt with but we see how Xavier is able to bypass that with all mutants being granted diplomatic immunity by their birthright to Krakoa. Crimes against humanity are definitely still upheld in the regular world. I’m sure even these very situational instances that leeway can be made but that’s vastly different than just family coming over to live just because they miss their mutant relatives. Those mutants’ survivability is determined on their connections to their human carers, and that’s something I’m sure most of the Council will agree must happen because mutsnt lives need to be insured.

[pkingdom]

That is a good point, it is hypocritical; but others have mentioned that escalating stakes made that an impossible stance to hold? What do you think of that?

I agree, definitely; that isn't genuine acceptance, that's bordering on subjugation.

I think its a bit disingenuous. They could have just as easily used the time skip to say that the events of Uncanny caused sympathy for mutants to spike after how dire things were, combined with the renewed resolve of the Age of X-man people returning, and resulted in some kind of strong legislative win. If you can in media res an entire country, you can do the same for some sort of mutant rights act. There is nothing stopping Marvel from giving the X-men an actual win for once that doesn't spit in the face of everything that's happened before. Hell, they could even bring Sublime or Cassandra Nova back to justify the bizarre spike in mutant prejudice that happened in Uncanny.

[Tycon]

It renders every heroic speech to the contrary made by every mutant hero in the history of the X-men empty and meaningless. They're simply wrong. And the message of the current run is that they will finally find happiness when they realize that. They used to say things like they know Trask doesn't speak for everyone, and now they say they can't tell the bad humans from the good.

If the people of Krakoa think its a good thing that people are worshiping them, then they are evil. Full stop. That is not acceptance. Worship is very different then acceptance, respect and tolerance. Its literally a lesson the X-men used to be used to teach.

That’s not what’s happening, though. Mutants have finally realized that most institutions that they live under are horrifically anti-mutant. Does that mean humans aren’t holding pro-mutant rallies somewhere? No, and the Krakoans clearly know that as they still hold human allies and have connections with the outside world but what’s the use of putting yourself in a hostile environment in order to sustain said relationships. With a system that demands protection, mutants are now able to live under a society where individuality and difference is celebrated instead of punished. And no one thinks the cults are “a good thing” but it’s a measure of just how much things have changed from “everybody hates mutants!!!” that the Decimation and previous eras capitalized on.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

That plays into my 'cynical optimism' thinking. To me, it doesn't feel like the M-Days are over. In fact it feels like things are doubling down on that kind of story. Mutants are now so hated everywhere in the entire world they don't feel safe anywhere BUT Krakoa. Its feels like a common sentiment on this board is that mutants all basically get hatecrimed if they ever step outside of Krakoa, and that's just how terrible the world is for mutants. Nothing that Xavier is doing seems to be correcting that. We only have 1 data page restricted story making it look like people give even the slightest damn about mutants now. Almost every story running now is about humans trying to genocide the mutants. Far from putting those stories behind us, it seems like that's the only story they can tell now.

They are being attacked, but these are relatively skirmishes, rather than there being an overarching existential crisis.

It's gonna depend on how they want to play it from writer to writer and situation to situation. I feel like right now is a good spot where there can be stories of mutants encountering humans and being adored and then in the next couple of issues, meeting some humans that picket them like the old days.

The board is very hyped about the response to Krakoa from other readers, more than the idea itself. That creates reactions that are a wee bit outsized. I don't think it has been established that mutants can't be anywhere outside Krakoa. In fact, Cap'n Kate and crew just hit up a night-club not too long ago.

Once we get some light shone on the idea that mutants are still about protecting everyone, the more culty vibe will even out, in the stories and on the board. At least I think they will get back to protecting people.

I think we are in a time where most hero fiction consumers want their heroes to try to make the world better for more than just themselves. We'll see that in the X-Men too, once the world is built out.

[pkingdom]

They are being attacked, but these are relatively skirmishes, rather than there being an overarching existential crisis.

It's gonna depend on how they want to play it from writer to writer and situation to situation. I feel like right now is a good spot where there can be stories of mutants encountering humans and being adored and then in the next couple of issues, meeting some humans that picket them like the old days.

The board is very hyped about the response to Krakoa from other readers, more than the idea itself. That creates reactions that are a wee bit outsized. I don't think it has been established that mutants can't be anywhere outside Krakoa. In fact, Cap'n Kate and crew just hit up a night-club not too long ago.

Once we get some light shone on the idea that mutants are still about protecting everyone, the more culty vibe will even out, in the stories and on the board. At least I think they will get back to protecting people.

I think we are in a time where most hero fiction consumers want their heroes to try to make the world better for more than just themselves. We'll see that in the X-Men too, once the world is built out.

I genuinely hope that that is the case, but the currently announced series' don't inspire confidence in me. Hickman seems to be favoring Magneto and Emma, and they are probably the last characters to focus on protecting everyone, at least in their current state.

You are absolutely right about wanting to see heroes try to make the world better. Its why I fell in love with Champions, Ms. Marvel and Unstoppable Wasp.