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  1. #1
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    Default Impact of Marvel and DC Films on Past & Future Films in the CBM Genre

    What impact do you think the success of the Marvel and DC films over the past few years will have on future films in the genre?


    As always there are some good and bad things that will occur as part of what has transpired in the CBM genre over the past few years. Marvel propelled CBM to the center of the movie market and has overtaken every other genre. The good is that studios are willing to invest in making more films in the genre. The bad is they have over saturated the market with a studio driven product that may reduce overall interest in the future.

    The good with DC is they have created some of the greatest CBM of all time and have changed how we see CBM. The bad is they are not consistent and may turn off people from seeing films in the future.

    IMO the impact from Joker, Logan, and Winter Soldier is going to propel DC and Marvel to look at how different genres can be incorporated into each film and not make CBM feel like CBM.

    Another impact is I think that TV will begin to be incorporated in the MCU which I think is a bad idea. IMO it's too much to ask consumers to keep up with film and tv in order to enjoy the larger overarching storyline and may backfire. Especially when they don't know if they can garner the same scale of interest from the audience again.

    Scaled back my original post so the thread doesn't derail and it's less confusing.
    Last edited by ComicJunkie21; 01-13-2020 at 05:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    What impact do you think the success of the Marvel and DC films over the past few years will have on future films in the genre?

    Additionally, it can also be discussed how Marvel and DC have impacted each other as well over the past few years.
    I think we've seen that studios play follow the leader. The MCU's success lead to a lot of half-baked cinematic universes started (and mostly failed) by other companies. If DC's recent experimenting with "R"-rated comic book movies continues to be successful, we'll probably see more of those in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    I think they are also making a mistake by moving their female characters like Captain Marvel and Lady Thor to the center of the universe as I think they will end up isolating their core audience of young boys (they buy the most toys and merchandising).
    Seeing how popular Captain Marvel was and that a Black Widow movie was a fan wish for many years, I don't think this's going to happen at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    DC will struggle with consistency still as well as trying to balance when to use dark and lighter elements. DC is already compared to Marvel today so this is nothing new and will continue to happen. DC not doing a large shared universe will most likely prevent it from reaching the success of Endgame. DC is also looking to limit its audience with more R rated content that excludes the kid demographic as well as some international markets.
    I think DC has proven they can deliver with the right creators. As far as the R-rated stuff, some people are going to like it, other's wont. Me? I'm salty with them making Birds of Prey R, but I don't think that's going to change much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    What impact do you think the success of the Marvel and DC films over the past few years will have on future films in the genre?

    Additionally, it can also be discussed how Marvel and DC have impacted each other as well over the past few years.

    As always there are some good and bad things that will occur as part of what has transpired in the CBM genre over the past few years. Marvel propelled CBM to the center of the movie market and has overtaken every other genre. The good is that studios are willing to invest in making more films in the genre. The bad is they have over saturated the market with a studio driven product that may reduce overall interest in the future.

    The good with DC is they have created some of the greatest CBM of all time and have changed how we see CBM. The bad is they are not consistent and may turn off people from seeing films in the future.

    Both have done well in terms of promoting diversity, although as of today I would give DC more credit with having female directors and casting but Marvel's future shows they are making strides to be more inclusive and could make a bigger impact in this area coming up.

    I think in the upcoming future both studios will suffer for different reasons. Marvel will have a hard time garnering interest and making people become invested in another saga long term. I think they are also making a mistake by moving their female characters like Captain Marvel and Lady Thor to the center of the universe as I think they will end up isolating their core audience of young boys (they buy the most toys and merchandising). Further, I think Marvel will begin to be compared to DC in terms of innovation and quality (It's been a one sided battle). Another issue I think they will have is they will have a hard time getting directors as their model calls for a director who is okay with having minimal creative input. Finally, I think they shouldn't connect their tv universe to the film universe as that's asking for consumers to keep up with a lot imo and may turn people off if they have to watch movies and tv to keep up with the overall plot.

    DC will struggle with consistency still as well as trying to balance when to use dark and lighter elements. DC is already compared to Marvel today so this is nothing new and will continue to happen. DC not doing a large shared universe will most likely prevent it from reaching the success of Endgame. DC is also looking to limit its audience with more R rated content that excludes the kid demographic as well as some international markets.
    I think this discussion would be a lot easier without all the assumptions you make here. Many of them false IMO.

    Marvel's directors are given great creative freedom. So much so that Taiki Waititi's version of Thor made many fans angry. All of their directors swear by having full freedom to make their movies. And all of them keep coming back for more at a rate many other studios struggle with.

    I don't think quality is one-sided at all, unless you're talking one-sided in the film world (Marvel) and one sided in TV so far (DC).

    The problem as I see it is that we can't really compare the two right now because Marvel is achieving something on a scale DC currently is not. That doesn't make them better, but the truth is that DC tried and failed (quite miserably) at what Marvel is mastering. I think it'd be better to judge in on the merits of what they are trying to do more than a direct comparison of both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    DC will struggle with consistency still as well as trying to balance when to use dark and lighter elements. DC is already compared to Marvel today so this is nothing new and will continue to happen. DC not doing a large shared universe will most likely prevent it from reaching the success of Endgame. DC is also looking to limit its audience with more R rated content that excludes the kid demographic as well as some international markets.
    I don't think DC is limiting their audience by making a few of their films R rated, they are actually expanding their audience - people who never watch CBMs watched Joker. Instead of making one movie for everyone, they're making smaller movies for different audiences. And it's not like they stopped making PG-13 movies for the kid friendly masses, I expect Wonder Woman to do very well.

    Basically it's a move I hope Marvel copies soon, especially since they got Deadpool back now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    I think this discussion would be a lot easier without all the assumptions you make here. Many of them false IMO.

    Marvel's directors are given great creative freedom. So much so that Taiki Waititi's version of Thor made many fans angry. All of their directors swear by having full freedom to make their movies. And all of them keep coming back for more at a rate many other studios struggle with.

    I don't think quality is one-sided at all, unless you're talking one-sided in the film world (Marvel) and one sided in TV so far (DC).

    The problem as I see it is that we can't really compare the two right now because Marvel is achieving something on a scale DC currently is not. That doesn't make them better, but the truth is that DC tried and failed (quite miserably) at what Marvel is mastering. I think it'd be better to judge in on the merits of what they are trying to do more than a direct comparison of both.
    My opinion on director creative freedom applies to future films. Although there are known instances of directors having creative differences and not being allowed to do things in the mcu films. The directors that keep coming back are the new up and coming ones that didn't have much going on in the first place. Not dissing them by any means but it's a lot easier to retain people coming back when they don't have any new gigs lined up that pays as good.

    I am talking about quality in film being one sided for Marvel and in TV for DC.

    I think what can be looked at is the impact the past few years are going to have on each company's future. I stated that I think both will suffer in some form and imo it seems that Marvel will have the bigger mountain to climb based off of what they've done and what they are trying to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I don't think DC is limiting their audience by making a few of their films R rated, they are actually expanding their audience - people who never watch CBMs watched Joker. Instead of making one movie for everyone, they're making smaller movies for different audiences. And it's not like they stopped making PG-13 movies for the kid friendly masses, I expect Wonder Woman to do very well.

    Basically it's a move I hope Marvel copies soon, especially since they got Deadpool back now.
    DC limiting their audience is a point that can be argued simply because they have cut out the demographic of people below 17 who can see a film. Additionally, certain mature films cannot be released in China which is a huge market (not with a huge return due to studios only getting 25%). DC is diversifying their portfolio of films which is different. It means they are aiming different films in their portfolio at different targeted audiences.

    Joker did over a billion dollars and that was off of a budget of less than 60 million, while an incredible feature, it's less of a guarantee that another film like that with a limited audience and release will do the same numbers.

    I think Deadpool will finish out his solo films as R now but if he appears in crossover films with Spiderman or X-Men then he's definitely going PG-13. Marvel I don't think will diversify as very much simply because their parent company is more interested in selling toys and merchandise to the 13 and under demographic.
    Last edited by ComicJunkie21; 01-12-2020 at 11:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I think we've seen that studios play follow the leader. The MCU's success lead to a lot of half-baked cinematic universes started (and mostly failed) by other companies. If DC's recent experimenting with "R"-rated comic book movies continues to be successful, we'll probably see more of those in the future.



    Seeing how popular Captain Marvel was and that a Black Widow movie was a fan wish for many years, I don't think this's going to happen at all.



    I think DC has proven they can deliver with the right creators. As far as the R-rated stuff, some people are going to like it, other's wont. Me? I'm salty with them making Birds of Prey R, but I don't think that's going to change much.
    Captain Marvel is one of the biggest unknowns imo. I don't think that we can truly measure the character's popularity based off of the first film because it was the film before Endgame and most people, including myself, felt like we needed to see it thinking that she was going to have this huge role in the final showdown against Thanos. Definitely got fooled on that one. If the second film doesn't perform well I wouldn't be surprised. Personally, when they were marketing the film, none of the trailers interested me really so if I would've known that the character would have been in Endgame for about 10 minutes with little to no impact to the story, I would have waited for it to go on Netflix.

    I think DC can deliver but still it's a risk of going the director driven route that you hit and miss.

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    Let me give you the time line.


    It all officially started with Superman 1978. this is the godfather of comic book movie and the most influential. it had a terrific sequel Superman 2, arguably the best superman movie to date.

    In the late 80s and the dawn of the new 90s. Tim Burton came along Batman 89 and Batman 92. this gave comic films a more darker edge and went on to influence many Saturday morning cartoons. X-Men TAS, Spiderman TAS and Batman TAS. these are also the comic films that started the director driven approach. I expect even some in this MCU generation to have heard of ''The Tim Burton style''

    The genre took a nose dive, with Batman and Robin, some will argue killed the genre. one of the lowest point in comics before what we have know where Hollywood directors claim to hate comic movies.

    Blade 98. perhaps officially the first marvel movie. was very successful and brought back some prowess to the genre, however blade was too deep in the vampire genre. it was seen as a vampire film first and a superhero movie second. Blade is also the first mainstream black superhero.

    X-Men 2000. The new millennium, brought in a new wave of comic movies, It was mostly a hard sci fi drama, driven by realistic grounded issues. it brought credibility to the comic movies. this influence capitalised on the better sequel X2. it went on to influence the Nolan Batman films.

    Spiderman 2002 and Spiderman 2. arguably the most accessible superhero films ever done, it redefined superhero blockbusters with some of the best film making choices that still stand the test of time today. unlike the xmen movies that felt it needed excessive grounded realism where the mutants could not have fun or put on costumes, spiderman 2002 and 2 showed you didn't need to take it that far and you can still have great movies.

    Batman Begins 2005. Wiped the slate of batman clean from batman and robin, took the Xmen 2000 mentality of making serious grounded movies which strengthened comic movies a lot more as a real genre.

    The Dark Knight 2008, redefined the entire genre. opened a lot of opportunities for the genre to explore itself more.

    Iron Man 2008, the start of a concept called a cinematic universe.

    Somewhere around 2010/2011, Disney buys marvel. Marvel movies now become Disney movies leaving a lot of their adult source material behind.

    Avengers 2012. the official first crossover movie. things changed forever for the worse. all studios Sony, fox and wb, wanted a piece of the avengers money. Amazing Spiderman 2014 fails for this.

    Man of Steel 2013, tries to start up the DCEU but to no avail because DC was rushing things to play catch up to MCU.

    Winter Solider 2014 MCU first and only attempt to make a quite realistic adult story driven movie though Disney chose to capitalise more on the Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 comedy approach going forward with Marvel. Fox and Sony reach the end of an era. Days of future past said goodbye to the main X-Men cast in the best way possible that started it all in the 2000s. Andrew Garfield exits role of Spiderman setting the stage for Spiderman to join the mcu.

    Deadpool 2016 The return of R Rated comic movies with a big bang. Also more push for creative freedom

    Logan and Wonder Woman 2017- Saw both genre redefining films. Wonder Woman as a female comic character with a female director Patty Jenkins, Logan capitalising on what the first xmen did and TDK did to take the genre one step more forward in making real excellent drama that just happens to have comic characters. gives more chance for the genre to explore itself again.

    2015-2020, the cinematic concept for marvel and DC continues to grow at the expense of good film making and story telling. Additionally the tone of comic movies begins to change more, and in my opinion for the worst. things got more fun, formulaic and more CGI action comedy than thoughtful smart.

    In 2020, this is now where we are, there is little substance left. Dont also forget the genre is supposedly stupid to this ''snobby directors'' and would not be influencing any of their movies though I doubt they had such negative influential thought of marvel and DC movies in the 2000s.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-13-2020 at 01:49 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    Captain Marvel is one of the biggest unknowns imo. I don't think that we can truly measure the character's popularity based off of the first film because it was the film before Endgame and most people, including myself, felt like we needed to see it thinking that she was going to have this huge role in the final showdown against Thanos. Definitely got fooled on that one. If the second film doesn't perform well I wouldn't be surprised. Personally, when they were marketing the film, none of the trailers interested me really so if I would've known that the character would have been in Endgame for about 10 minutes with little to no impact to the story, I would have waited for it to go on Netflix.

    I think DC can deliver but still it's a risk of going the director driven route that you hit and miss.
    Dunno, one thing we've seen time and time again with the MCU is that it takes just one movie turn a character into a superstar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Let me give you the time line.


    It all officially started with Superman 1978. this is the godfather of comic book movie and the most influential. it had a terrific sequel Superman 2, arguably the best superman movie to date.

    In the late 80s and the dawn of the new 90s. Tim Burton came along Batman 89 and Batman 92. this gave comic films a more darker edge and went on to influence many Saturday morning cartoons. X-Men TAS, Spiderman TAS and Batman TAS. these are also the comic films that started the director driven approach. I expect even some in this MCU generation to have heard of ''The Tim Burton style''

    The genre took a nose dive, with Batman and Robin, some will argue killed the genre. one of the lowest point in comics before what we have know where Hollywood directors claim to hate comic movies.

    Blade 98. perhaps officially the first marvel movie. was very successful and brought back some prowess to the genre, however blade was too deep in the vampire genre. it was seen as a vampire film first and a superhero movie second. Blade is also the first mainstream black superhero.

    X-Men 2000. The new millennium, brought in a new wave of comic movies, It was mostly a hard sci fi drama, driven by realistic grounded issues. it brought credibility to the comic movies. this influence capitalised on the better sequel X2. it went on to influence the Nolan Batman films.

    Spiderman 2002 and Spiderman 2. arguably the most accessible superhero films ever done, it redefined superhero blockbusters with some of the best film making choices that still stand the test of time today. unlike the xmen movies that felt it needed excessive grounded realism where the mutants could not have fun or put on costumes, spiderman 2002 and 2 showed you didn't need to take it that far and you can still have great movies.

    Batman Begins 2005. Wiped the slate of batman clean from batman and robin, took the Xmen 2000 mentality of making serious grounded movies which strengthened comic movies a lot more as a real genre.

    The Dark Knight 2008, redefined the entire genre. opened a lot of opportunities for the genre to explore itself more.

    Iron Man 2008, the start of a concept called a cinematic universe.

    Somewhere around 2010/2011, Disney buys marvel. Marvel movies now become Disney movies leaving a lot of their adult source material behind.

    Avengers 2012. the official first crossover movie. things changed forever for the worse. all studios Sony, fox and wb, wanted a piece of the avengers money. Amazing Spiderman 2014 fails for this.

    Man of Steel 2013, tries to start up the DCEU but to no avail because DC was rushing things to play catch up to MCU.

    Winter Solider 2014 MCU first and only attempt to make a quite realistic adult story driven movie though Disney chose to capitalise more on the Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 comedy approach going forward with Marvel. Fox and Sony reach the end of an era. Days of future past said goodbye to the main X-Men cast in the best way possible that started it all in the 2000s. Andrew Garfield exits role of Spiderman setting the stage for Spiderman to join the mcu.

    Deadpool 2016 The return of R Rated comic movies with a big bang. Also more push for creative freedom

    Logan and Wonder Woman 2017- Saw both genre redefining films. Wonder Woman as a female comic character with a female director Patty Jenkins, Logan capitalising on what the first xmen did and TDK did to take the genre one step more forward in making real excellent drama that just happens to have comic characters. gives more chance for the genre to explore itself again.

    2015-2020, the cinematic concept continues to grow at the expense of good film making and story telling. Additionally the tone of comic movies begins to change more, and in my opinion for the worst. things got more fun, formulaic and more CGI action comedy than thoughtful smart. although

    In 2020, this is now where we are, there is little substance left. Dont also forget the genre is supposedly stupid to this ''snobby directors'' and would not be influencing any of their movies though I doubt they had such negative influential thought of marvel and DC movies in the 2000s.
    Haven't we all gotten enough threads locked up with this endless debate on whether or not the MCU sucks because they're not like the Fox X-Men movies yet?
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    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Dunno, one thing we've seen time and time again with the MCU is that it takes just one movie turn a character into a superstar.



    Haven't we all gotten enough threads locked up with this endless debate on whether or not the MCU sucks because they're not like the Fox X-Men movies yet?
    My post said no such thing. Since when does a historical timeline of the impact marvel and DC movies have had become an endless debate of what sucks. you are reading much into things that are not there. How you can interpret that as MCU sucks is beyond me. the poster asked for impact of their sucess, I thought it will be best to give a run down of how some marvel and DC movies have done that from the beginning.

    Want to know who still talks about how Superman 1978 still impact his work today? Kevin Fiege

    https://www.inverse.com/article/3274...er-kevin-feige
    Marvel Studios Watches an Iconic DC Film Before Every Movie


    Singer had to leave X3 to chase his Superman dream also to no success. that is impact, I thought we were talking about though I think the ComicJunkie21 did not lay out his thread well, his comments are most likely to start flame wars so giving a Fair and honest timeline like I did of what marvel and DC films success and impact, prevents a debate of mcu sucks, fox sucks, Sony sucks or DC sucks because we get to see how all marvel and movies influenced and impacted the genre and the low and high points for 40 years of marvel and DC films.

    Funny that that my timeline ending up showing Batman and Robin and Amazing spiderman 2014 as the lowest point for marvel that DC that had any zero inpact on any other films, amazing spiderman 2 was even an official flop. Neither are MCU movies. I also showed how DCEU failed to have MCU impact with man of Steel trying to do a build a DC cinematic universe leading to a flop with Justice League. MCU actually looks good in my timeline. Also ask Sony who wanted to make Sinister Six because of the MCU impact and failing at it instead of succeeded like MCU Avengers did.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-13-2020 at 03:06 AM.

  11. #11
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    Ironic that you of all People say stuff like "reading much into Things that are not there"

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    ComicJunkie21, I don't doubt your intentions but I think this thread's heading is quite wrong, confusing and somewhat misleading. what you said has little to do with the actual impact of marvel and DC films and the future of their influence on the next wave of comic movies. This thread seems more about how and were you think the both series are heading, than their influence on the genre. its a de ja vu topic. we know marvel will stay put with what they do and DC will explore their black label line in the future.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-13-2020 at 02:46 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Let me give you the time line.


    It all officially started with Superman 1978. this is the godfather of comic book movie and the most influential. it had a terrific sequel Superman 2, arguably the best superman movie to date.

    In the late 80s and the dawn of the new 90s. Tim Burton came along Batman 89 and Batman 92. this gave comic films a more darker edge and went on to influence many Saturday morning cartoons. X-Men TAS, Spiderman TAS and Batman TAS. these are also the comic films that started the director driven approach. I expect even some in this MCU generation to have heard of ''The Tim Burton style''

    The genre took a nose dive, with Batman and Robin, some will argue killed the genre. one of the lowest point in comics before what we have know where Hollywood directors claim to hate comic movies.

    Blade 98. perhaps officially the first marvel movie. was very successful and brought back some prowess to the genre, however blade was too deep in the vampire genre. it was seen as a vampire film first and a superhero movie second. Blade is also the first mainstream black superhero.

    X-Men 2000. The new millennium, brought in a new wave of comic movies, It was mostly a hard sci fi drama, driven by realistic grounded issues. it brought credibility to the comic movies. this influence capitalised on the better sequel X2. it went on to influence the Nolan Batman films.

    Spiderman 2002 and Spiderman 2. arguably the most accessible superhero films ever done, it redefined superhero blockbusters with some of the best film making choices that still stand the test of time today. unlike the xmen movies that felt it needed excessive grounded realism where the mutants could not have fun or put on costumes, spiderman 2002 and 2 showed you didn't need to take it that far and you can still have great movies.

    Batman Begins 2005. Wiped the slate of batman clean from batman and robin, took the Xmen 2000 mentality of making serious grounded movies which strengthened comic movies a lot more as a real genre.

    The Dark Knight 2008, redefined the entire genre. opened a lot of opportunities for the genre to explore itself more.

    Iron Man 2008, the start of a concept called a cinematic universe.

    Somewhere around 2010/2011, Disney buys marvel. Marvel movies now become Disney movies leaving a lot of their adult source material behind.

    Avengers 2012. the official first crossover movie. things changed forever for the worse. all studios Sony, fox and wb, wanted a piece of the avengers money. Amazing Spiderman 2014 fails for this.

    Man of Steel 2013, tries to start up the DCEU but to no avail because DC was rushing things to play catch up to MCU.

    Winter Solider 2014 MCU first and only attempt to make a quite realistic adult story driven movie though Disney chose to capitalise more on the Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 comedy approach going forward with Marvel. Fox and Sony reach the end of an era. Days of future past said goodbye to the main X-Men cast in the best way possible that started it all in the 2000s. Andrew Garfield exits role of Spiderman setting the stage for Spiderman to join the mcu.

    Deadpool 2016 The return of R Rated comic movies with a big bang. Also more push for creative freedom

    Logan and Wonder Woman 2017- Saw both genre redefining films. Wonder Woman as a female comic character with a female director Patty Jenkins, Logan capitalising on what the first xmen did and TDK did to take the genre one step more forward in making real excellent drama that just happens to have comic characters. gives more chance for the genre to explore itself again.

    2015-2020, the cinematic concept for marvel and DC continues to grow at the expense of good film making and story telling. Additionally the tone of comic movies begins to change more, and in my opinion for the worst. things got more fun, formulaic and more CGI action comedy than thoughtful smart.

    In 2020, this is now where we are, there is little substance left. Dont also forget the genre is supposedly stupid to this ''snobby directors'' and would not be influencing any of their movies though I doubt they had such negative influential thought of marvel and DC movies in the 2000s.
    If your going to "Give..." us the timeline, could you at least give us one without some glaring omissions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    If your going to "Give..." us the timeline, could you at least give us one without some glaring omissions?
    What did I miss out, please tell me as I am open to constructive criticism though I think I mentioned the most impactful and successful marvel and DC films.

  15. #15
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    DC limiting their audience is a point that can be argued simply because they have cut out the demographic of people below 17 who can see a film. Additionally, certain mature films cannot be released in China which is a huge market (not with a huge return due to studios only getting 25%). DC is diversifying their portfolio of films which is different. It means they are aiming different films in their portfolio at different targeted audiences.

    Joker did over a billion dollars and that was off of a budget of less than 60 million, while an incredible feature, it's less of a guarantee that another film like that with a limited audience and release will do the same numbers.

    I think Deadpool will finish out his solo films as R now but if he appears in crossover films with Spiderman or X-Men then he's definitely going PG-13. Marvel I don't think will diversify as very much simply because their parent company is more interested in selling toys and merchandise to the 13 and under demographic.
    However you put it, I still think diversifying is s good thing, and limiting a minimal amount of their overall output isn't going to hurt them. They factor that in. Otherwise, R rated movies wouldn't even exist anymore.

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