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  1. #31
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    That is exactly how I felt about the characters in The Irishman.
    I disagree I think they relationship between Deniro/Pesci was solid and then Deniro/ Pacini was earned and made the ending gut wrenching for me. But I agree they didnt change and grow much. Except maybe Deniro but his only change was what he did for money, he was that guy no questions asked from the jump.

  2. #32
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Here’s what I said a year ago, Black Panthers nom was a joke because they didn’t get a single writing, acting, or directing nom. There was no other film up for best picture that the Academy didn’t deem good enough for any of the other major awards. It was basically just there to be there

    Joker as a best acting nom, best directing nom, and best adapted screenplay nom.
    And if Michale B Jordan and Coogler would have been nominated people would have been elated. I mean Uncut Gems and Knives out got almost no love this year. It's a toss up what academy likes and also the strength of the feild.

    If you really wanna debate it just answer the question I asked Beddle that hes probaly never gonna directly answer in any real detail anyway. There is a strong message Coogler wanted to get across with those two characters. Just tell me why that's not well written. I mean he did the normal surface themes with the exploration of the Morality of isolationism but then he wrote his two leads with a message baked into who they are and how they compare.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Lol you didnt answer the question at all. Tchalla and Killmonger are the entire movie. Coogler wrote both of them to represent soemthing. That is the entire premise of the movie. Specifically what was that and why is it not done well? Thor and Loki have nothing in common with it since. They cant since its 100% about Black people and unique to African America experience. So stop dancing around and using buzz words. It's real simple. What was Coogler conveying with Killmonger vs Tchalla and why you felt it wasnt down well.
    I didn't say it was badly written, I said it was too simple, it would actually be a well written pixar story, though it was generic to other past main rival duos we have seen in other movies. what was not done well is the movie never estbalsihsedd any kind of relationship between the characters that made the duo compelling.

    when you have a main duo like that, you have to set up their background or give them a history first, show them as friends, show them as rivals, show that they have a bond then transform them to enemies or at least dangerous frenemies or you can just let their characters play out the fre-eneimeis angle thought out the film to complicate the story more, but that story style does seem to be for a more adult driven audience even though I think Kids can cope with it.Black panther main characters missed all the steps and just showed them as enemies, there was no build up to the relationship or friendly bond first

    The other MCU movie, Thor 1, at least set up the brotherly relationship between Loki and Thor before they tried to kill eachother. Black Panther tried to finish the relay race without handling the batons. It is your expected formulaic MCU movie. I don't see how the movie got nominated out of the 22 MCU movies with the mostly white cast for the other mcu films.

    I will also say any movie that cost more than 150-200m with very disappointing CGI, should not be nominated for best picture. objectivity from a movie making point it seems unfair as this is a very important category,you cannot just skip as a supposedly blockbuster Oscar potential movie. they are almost like the joker card in a 52 deck of cards since this is only when the Oscar voters may make the story and characters secondary. Avatar and Star Wars 1977 are fine examples of this. (star wars did have a good story but it was the cgi of the film that was groundbreaking)
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    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-14-2020 at 05:46 PM.

  4. #34
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I didn't say it was badly written, I said it was too simple, it would actually be a well written pixar story, though it was generic to other past main rival duos we have seen in other movies. what was not done well is the movie never estbalsihsedd any kind of relationship between the characters that made the duo compelling.

    when you have a main duo like that, you have to set up their background or give them a history first, show them as friends, show them as rivals, show that they have a bond then transform them to enemies or at least dangerous frenemies or you can just let their characters play out the fre-eneimeis angle thought out the film to complicate the story more, but that story style does seem to be for a more adult driven audience even though I think Kids can cope with it.Black panther main characters missed all the steps and just showed them as enemies, there was no build up to the relationship or friendly bond first

    The other MCU movie, Thor 1, at least set up the brotherly relationship between Loki and Thor before they tried to kill eachother. Black Panther tried to finish the relay race without handling the batons. It is your expected formulaic MCU movie. I don't see how the movie got nominated out of the 22 MCU movies with the mostly white cast for the other mcu films.

    I will also say any movie that cost more than 150-200m with very disappointing CGI, should not be nominated for best picture. objectivity from a movie making point it seems unfair as this is a very important category,you cannot just skip as a supposedly blockbuster Oscar potential movie. they are almost like the joker card in a 52 deck of cards since this is only when the Oscar voters may make the story and characters secondary. Avatar and Star Wars 1977 are fine examples of this. (star wars did have a good story but it was the cgi of the film that was groundbreaking)
    -
    Again you didnt say anything and missed the point entirely. Tchalla and Killmonger have no relationship that would defeat the whole message of the movie. The fact you think its suppose to be like the Thor/Loki relationship in anyway tells me it went over your head. They arent suppose to have any history except ancestral. Their upbringing and circumstance is suppose to 100% seperate... it's the point. Tchalla is a stand in for one aspect of Black life and Killmonger another.

    Again your only arguement is two scenes with bad CGI.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    I disagree I think they relationship between Deniro/Pesci was solid and then Deniro/ Pacini was earned and made the ending gut wrenching for me. But I agree they didnt change and grow much. Except maybe Deniro but his only change was what he did for money, he was that guy no questions asked from the jump.
    Most found the ending of Endgame heart wrenching and earned aseell.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #36
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Most found the ending of Endgame heart wrenching and earned aseell.
    Oh yes and I loved Endgame top 3 movies of the year for me. But to play devils advocate that was 10years of build. While I do think they did do enough with Tony where the ending would heart breaking on it's own. Alot of the tears in the theater was like series finale of a TV show. Alot of it wasnt earned in that one episode but pay off of years of bonding with these characters. That doesnt effect my enjoyment at all but I think that's what people mean when they say Endgame doesnt earn it. They are judging something on it's own that is almost impossible to judge that way. I mean Infinity war and Endgame are bascialy one movie in my head anyway.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Some Comics fans: Awards are shams don't mean anything, The media and companies control things, Awards don't mean towards quality

    The Very same comic fans when the movie they like is the running: This is a great thing this means something, I am not going to downplay the awards now because it is a movie I like
    Yeah, it's an easy trap to fall into. (I think we all do at one time or another.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Anyways props to Joker getting all those awards nominations. If it doesn't get the best actor award that is going to be interesting.
    Been seeing a lot of op-eds lately arguing that Joker didn't deserve to be nominated (some writers thinking it was a just a plan bad movie, others feeling that it wasn't a eleven Oscar film). Never saw it myself (although people I know who's opinions I respect were pretty uniform that it was a weak film, at the ver best), so I am curious how it will fair, too.

    I mean, about my only informed opinions on the Oscars this year is that I agree with the poster(s) who've said that Knives Out was snubbed by them.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, it's an easy trap to fall into. (I think we all do at one time or another.)




    Been seeing a lot of op-eds lately arguing that Joker didn't deserve to be nominated (some writers thinking it was a just a plan bad movie, others feeling that it wasn't a eleven Oscar film). Never saw it myself (although people I know who's opinions I respect were pretty uniform that it was a weak film, at the ver best), so I am curious how it will fair, too.

    I mean, about my only informed opinions on the Oscars this year is that I agree with the poster(s) who've said that Knives Out was snubbed by them.
    Joker is a very good movie and I personally would classify as a psychological drama/thriller more than anything else. But its very much a film carried by Phoenix's performance.

    It's not something that's never been before, major difference here is the social-political message (i.e absence of universal healthcare, stigma of mental illness, the demonisation of the poor e.t.c) and the usage of comic book characters.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Again you didnt say anything and missed the point entirely. Tchalla and Killmonger have no relationship that would defeat the whole message of the movie. The fact you think its suppose to be like the Thor/Loki relationship in anyway tells me it went over your head. They arent suppose to have any history except ancestral. Their upbringing and circumstance is suppose to 100% seperate... it's the point. Tchalla is a stand in for one aspect of Black life and Killmonger another.
    Again your only arguement is two scenes with bad CGI.
    Then they should have given them some kind of relationship first, it will have added more depth to the story. If you want a stronger Tchalla and Killmonger combo, try the Magneto and Xavier, the movie swears it was inspired by though that turned out to be a lie.
    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a8...dwick-boseman/
    Their upbringing and circumstance is suppose to 100% seperate... it's the point. Tchalla is a stand in for one aspect of Black life and Killmonger another.
    I am sure this two men had different upbringings too. they still set up a story for them in the first act of the movie. Raz was always meant not just to be a stand for one aspect of Bruce's life but what divides him and Bruce in the end was their plan for Gotham, despite them having some common belief.

    When Killmonger meets black panther, he is the villain straight away and takes him out,its writing a simple straightforward story for the duos.
    Again your only arguement is two scenes with bad CGI.
    Most of the CGI was disappointing, the scene were Black Panther rescues Nikita, the car chase was pretty bland too, it looked too too too animated. The Oscars already hate cgi big budget movies,so the CGI has to be out of this world to get that best picture nom. hey don't blame me, I am not a member of the academy, I only know how they think.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-15-2020 at 03:19 AM.

  10. #40
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Then they should have given them some kind of relationship first, it will have added more depth to the story. If you want a stronger Tchalla and Killmonger combo, try the Magneto and Xavier, the movie swears it was inspired by though that turned out to be a lie.

    https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a8...dwick-boseman/


    I am sure this two men had different upbringings too. they still set up a story for them in the first act of the movie. Raz was always meant not just to be a stand for one aspect of Bruce's life but what divides him and Bruce in the end was their plan for Gotham, despite them having some common belief.



    When Killmonger meets black panther, he is the villain straight away and takes him out, there is writing a simple straightforward story.



    Most of the CGI was disappointing, the scene were Black Panther rescues Nikita, the car chase was pretty bland too, it looked too too too animated. The Oscars already hate cgi big budget movies,so the CGI has to be out of this world to get that best picture nom. hey don't blame me, I am not a member of the academy, I only know how they think.

    Lol did you see the movie.? The whole point of those two characters evades you. The story isn't about they're relationship at all. Its about what they represent and the impact it has on tchalla. And the article about Xmen is saying that much like Xavier and Magneto Tchalla nd Killmknger want to help they're people but have different ideas on how to do that. They didnt lie at all. They're arent suppose to have a relationship. Did Joker and Batman have some established relationship in TDK? And Two face is a bad guy for 5mins and dies.

    Black Panther got an Oscar Nom for VFX didnt it? You think all Marvel movies look like cartoons but the vast majority of people would disagree. It's your opinion not fact.

    So far all I have heard is Black Panther isnt good because they didnt make Killmknger and Tchalla have an established relationship? Tons of movies do that. You say MCU is too formulaic but now your saying Black Panther shoulda done what this other movie did.

    Again stop trying to change the movie and tell me what Tchalla and Killmonger represented and why it isnt done well. Otherwise stop saying the themes were shallow and disneyfied if you cant argue why or even define what they are.
    Last edited by Midvillian1322; 01-15-2020 at 05:34 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    Lol did you see the movie.? The whole point of those two characters evades you. The story isn't about they're relationship at all. Its about what they represent and the impact it has on tchalla.
    .
    I saw the movie, infact the movie is very plot driven of what goes on in the country of wakanda, nothing much of an attempted drama happens until Killmonger arrives at Wakanda.
    And the article about Xmen is saying that much like Xavier and Magneto Tchalla nd Killmknger want to help they're people but have different ideas on how to do that. They didnt lie at all.
    I Don't think it was their intentions to lie but when Disney continues to replace their own story type for marvel comics, what their intention is never shows up in the movie.
    They're arent suppose to have a relationship. Did Joker and Batman have some relationship in TDK? And Two face is a bad guy for 5mins and dies.
    I said, they should have had one because it would have made the movie more compelling. MLK and Malcom X got along at some point.
    meeting.jpg
    I said duos can work in two ways, the second way is to play the catch and mouse game which is what batman and joker had in TDK to Batman and Raz in the first film of building a friendship first then becoming villains. neither batman movies were nominated for best picture and they had a more complicated duo relationship.
    Literaly your argument is silly. And Black Panther got an Oscar Nom for VFX didnt it? You think all Marvel movies look like cartoons but the vast majority of people would disagree. It's your opinion not fact.
    Black Panther was not nominated for best VFX, that was Infinity Wars.
    Most marvel movies don't look realistic enough for oscars. they are not a grounded universe that will attracts oscars. if you look at the past movies that came close at oscars before Joker. Logan and TDK, they are very grounded looking movies, been their predecessor films (Batman Begins, Days of Future Past) were less animated colourful grounded films. Marvel movies are too animated and colourful to be taken seriously as live action films for any major awards.
    So far all I have heard is Black Panther isnt good
    I never said Black Panther is not good, Black Panther like many MCU movies was fun and entertaining with some social themes though not evaluated above the Disney formula type of story telling. its not an Oscar criteria thing.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-15-2020 at 04:34 AM.

  12. #42
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I saw the movie, infact the movie is very plot driven of what goes on in the country of wakanda, nothing much of an attempted drama happens until Killmonger arrives at Wakanda.

    I Don't think it was their intentions to lie but when Disney continues to replace their own story type for marvel comics, what their intention is never shows up in the movie.

    I said, they should have had one because it would have made the movie more compelling. MLK and Malcom X got along at some point.
    meeting.jpg
    I said duos can work in two ways, the second way is to play the catch and mouse game which is what batman and joker had in TDK to Batman and Raz in the first film of building a friendship first then becoming villains. neither batman movies were nominated for best picture and they had a more complicated duo relationship.

    Black Panther was not nominated for best VFX, that was Infinity Wars.
    Most marvel movies don't look realistic enough for oscars. they are not a grounded universe that will attracts oscars. if you look at the past movies that came close at oscars before Joker. Logan and TDK, they are very grounded looking movies, been their predecessor films (Batman Begins, Days of Future Past) were less animated colourful grounded films. Marvel movies are too animated and colourful to be taken seriously as live action films for any major awards.

    I never said Black Panther is not good, Black Panther like many MCU movies was fun and entertaining with some social themes though not evaluated above the Disney formula type of story telling. its not an Oscar criteria thing.
    You still haven't answered the question I've asked 5x now. Break down the message Coogler is trying to convey with those two characters and how is it part of the Disney formula or somehow less then. You can insult it repeatedly but arent willing to say why in any detail. Rewriting a different movie isnt a valid critique of the story presented.

    Making Killmonger and Tchalla have a relationship in no way adds to that story. In fact it undercuts it. And while they share similarities to Magneto and Xavier. This isnt meant to play out like that at all. Not sure how it's a Disney story. Killmonger bascialy screaming death to whitey doesnt sound very disneyish to me. Killmonger actually succeeds in changing Tchallas beliefs as a character. Something we dont see much in CBMs.

    And that's right Black Panther was on the shortlist for the Oscar's VFX award but didnt make the final cut. And comics arent a grounded world period. The MCU reflects that. Anyway Black Panther did attract the Oscar's so clearly it can.

  13. #43
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    Okay, I wanna preface this by saying that I truly enjoyed Endgame and have rewatched it at least a few times since its release. I am also a tried and true comic book movie fan. I love CBMs. I think that they are fun and flashy and entertaining. Okay. So, now that that's out of the way, let me just say this.

    Endgame was a very good CBM. Was it a movie I'd expect to see with an Oscar nomination for Best Picture? No.

    And again, that is not a knock against its quality for what it was meant to be. However, that's exactly the point. It was a flashy superhero film where most of the scenes take place in front of a green screen. The plot also followed a pretty familiar and predictable journey. Heroes are in a pickle, they scramble to come up with solutions, they settle on one, it doesn't work at first, but then they find a magic bullet and they get it to work. Then, it seems that their plan is going to work until there is a last-minute wrinkle which leads to the climax of the film where the heroes emerge victorious. I mean, we all knew how Endgame was going to end. It's a story we've seen before. And, guess what? There's nothing wrong with that. It's still a fun and entertaining film.

    Joker, on the other hand, is an intense character study of a man with mental illness that culminates in an on-air assassination of a popular TV host. It doesn't contain those same familiar plot beats, opting to tell a story about a man in the middle of a very tragic life. While the story can appear a bit soap-opera-like on first glance, its still a very human story. It feels almost like a Greek tragedy. Anyone who has ever read Medea or Oedipus Rex knows what I'm talking about. Not to mention that the film is anchored by what is probably the most mesmerizing performance of the year.

    So, here's the thing: the Academy is more likely to reward the latter than it is the former. They prefer intimate human stories over blockbusters. There's nothing wrong with that.

    I guess I come at it from the perspective that, yeah, Martin Scorsese does have a point about the Marvel movies, but that his point isn't necessarily negative. Yes, Marvel movies are like theme parks. Theme parks are fun and flashy and they're meant to give you a fun and entertaining experience. However, they fulfill a different human desire or need than you would get from, say, going to the museum or reading a book. In that regard, going to a Marvel movie is like going to a theme park, whereas watching a movie like Marriage Story or the Irishman is like a trip to the museum. One, you are excited for the ride and get thrilled at the action, the other you marvel at the artistry and skill and get invested in this human story unfolding in front of you. Human beings kind of need both. But the Academy is kind of like the curator of the museum (I mean, they are literally opening up an Academy-operated museum dedicated to the history of cinema), so it tends to celebrate the latter over the former.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-16-2020 at 07:36 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Joker is a very good movie and I personally would classify as a psychological drama/thriller more than anything else. But its very much a film carried by Phoenix's performance.

    It's not something that's never been before, major difference here is the social-political message (i.e absence of universal healthcare, stigma of mental illness, the demonisation of the poor e.t.c) and the usage of comic book characters.
    Don't know about that. It's not the first comic book movie to comment on the real world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Okay, I wanna preface this by saying that I truly enjoyed Endgame and have rewatched it at least a few times since its release. I am also a tried and true comic book movie fan. I love CBMs. I think that they are fun and flashy and entertaining. Okay. So, now that that's out of the way, let me just say this.

    Endgame was a very good CBM. Was it a movie I'd expect to see with an Oscar nomination for Best Picture? No.
    Yes, I fail to see the upset. if the table were turned I won't see DC or Marvel fans arguing that Justice League or X-Men Apocalypse deserved Oscars, had JL and Apocalypse been great movies or gotten the same positive reviews as Endgame as much as they would have supported TDK, Logan or Joker.

    The harsh reality is there are only certain type of comics films that will attract Oscars, Endgame is not the type of comic film. Oscar will love the much smaller grounded drama focused films over the alien cgi driven sort of block buster.

    MCU can work a way around this problem, if they can get James Cameron to direct one of their films but he apparently dislikes MCU movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    You still haven't answered the question I've asked 5x now. Break down the message Coogler is trying to convey with those two characters and how is it part of the Disney formula or somehow less then. You can insult it repeatedly but arent willing to say why in any detail. Rewriting a different movie isnt a valid critique of the story presented.
    .
    I cannot break anything down because there is hardly anything to break down. Coogler under disney's order focused more on who was the right heir of Wakanda, that is the Disney formula type of story, not I think of it, its ironic that Disney stories are usually known for the Royal tales. Alladin, frozen, tangled. they have an entire line of Disney princess and Prince collection. it makes sense this was the top story arc in black panther and not the actual politics or social themes.


    Making Killmonger and Tchalla have a relationship in no way adds to that story. In fact it undercuts it. And while they share similarities to Magneto and Xavier. This isnt meant to play out like that at all. Not sure how it's a Disney story. Killmonger bascialy screaming death to whitey doesnt sound very disneyish to me. Killmonger actually succeeds in changing Tchallas beliefs as a character. Something we dont see much in CBMs.
    The don't have any similarities to magneto and xavier because magneto and Xavier are known first for their politica/social angles, they are ]fre-enemies to friends to brothers or whatever, the magneto/xavier stuff is complicated.

    You asked me how would you have made the script stronger and I said, making the duo in the film have a complex relationship would have been better or they could have taken the Royal stuff out and focus on the social themes more. you didn't like my answer and that is fine.
    And that's right Black Panther was on the shortlist for the Oscar's VFX award but didnt make the final cut. And comics arent a grounded world period. The MCU reflects that. Anyway Black Panther did attract the Oscar's so clearly it can.
    It was not nominated as I said. Avatar, Inception, Gravity, Hugo, Titanic, Gladiator, Life of Pi and the rest of any block buster movie with a big budget that got nominated for best picture also got nominated for VFX and they all won the VFX category.

    And comics arent a grounded world period. The MCU reflects that. Anyway Black Panther did attract the Oscar's so clearly it can.
    Contrary to this popular belief. Marvel comics took place in a more grounded word to DC. Stan Lee wanted to ground marvel characters more to the fantasy characters of DC. this is the reason marvel took place in real settings like new York to DC's Gotham and smallville.

    this is also the reason Marvel characters were seen as more relatable to the gods in DC. Marvel characters were meant to have more flaws and deal with every day hard issues and use stories to reflect a lot of real world problems. Marvel is indeed more grounded than DC, it is Disney that has tricked people into telling us that is not because Disney chose to dumb down marvel stories in films, dumbed down stories are usually not Oscar material.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 01-16-2020 at 02:24 AM.

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