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  1. #46
    Incredible Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    "Jonathan and I have not really dug into the whys of this because… well, I think when he said it, I knew it was right and didn’t question why at all."

    This doesn't look nothing like they care about the character. Character development is essential and for Jean it happens all off panel, very lame
    Of course the full quote that you snipped provides a bit more context as to their consideration...

    "Jordan: I think that’s exactly why they are there. Jonathan and I have not really dug into the whys of this because… well, I think when he said it, I knew it was right and didn’t question why at all. But, to me, everything about it resonates with them rising above things. They literally have risen above the struggle against humans for whether they can exist. And they have risen above the concern of death, so much so that they live in a posh dream house on the site of their most traumatic moment. They’re over it. They have bigger things to worry about."

  2. #47
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    Of course the full quote that you snipped provides a bit more context as to their consideration...

    "Jordan: I think that’s exactly why they are there. Jonathan and I have not really dug into the whys of this because… well, I think when he said it, I knew it was right and didn’t question why at all. But, to me, everything about it resonates with them rising above things. They literally have risen above the struggle against humans for whether they can exist. And they have risen above the concern of death, so much so that they live in a posh dream house on the site of their most traumatic moment. They’re over it. They have bigger things to worry about."
    That just said nothing. That development happens off panel as they aren't interested on telling stories about the characters.
    Hickman and JDW make me change my mind.

  3. #48
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    That just said nothing. That development happens off panel as they aren't interested on telling stories about the characters.
    Hickman and JDW make me change my mind.
    There are things that have been hand waved on the Hickman era, that is true.
    But regarding to Jean living on the moon, yeah she died there and she came back now, she got over it, that is the development this particular issue had.
    It is better than she refusing to go to the moon for a traumatic experience, strong people overcome trauma.

  4. #49
    Incredible Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    That just said nothing. That development happens off panel as they aren't interested on telling stories about the characters.
    Hickman and JDW make me change my mind.
    You made the statement that Hickman and Co don't care about the character. The full quote shows that they do care about the characters and their development, you just don't care for the way they are executing their artistic choices or agree with their assessment. From the full quote's POV they care about the characters enough to move them beyond the trauma and tell stories that aren't bogged down by the traumas of the past.

    Some of us appreciate that approach and aren't so prescriptive as to say that any storytelling we don't like is "lame" or that we would slag a creator as "not caring" because its not to our taste.

    The attacking of creators and hyperbolically demonizing their actions is one of the things that gives comic fans a bad name.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    You made the statement that Hickman and Co don't care about the character. The full quote shows that they do care about the characters and their development, you just don't care for the way they are executing their artistic choices or agree with their assessment. From the full quote's POV they care about the characters enough to move them beyond the trauma and tell stories that aren't bogged down by the traumas of the past.

    Some of us appreciate that approach and aren't so prescriptive as to say that any storytelling we don't like is "lame" or that we would slag a creator as "not caring" because its not to our taste.

    The attacking of creators and hyperbolically demonizing their actions is one of the things that gives comic fans a bad name.
    Don't bother. Spirit has long since made up their mind that unless Hickman & co. Writes Jean Grey as the savior of the mutant race while simultaneously stepping on Emma Frost's neck they're gonna be determined to hate this run.

    Which is funny because I feel like if Hickman did write the connective stories that spirit and other posters want they would decree that the characterization in those stories are too OOC. Which Loops back around the fact that there's just a portion of the X-Men fandom who really don't mind the X-Men recycling the same old melodrama.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    There are things that have been hand waved on the Hickman era, that is true.
    But regarding to Jean living on the moon, yeah she died there and she came back now, she got over it, that is the development this particular issue had.
    It is better than she refusing to go to the moon for a traumatic experience, strong people overcome trauma.
    Trauma is normal, some people have problems getting over it after decades. there isn't this "Strong people overcome trauma", this is very toxic to trauma and abuse survivors.
    They should at least show some conversation about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    You made the statement that Hickman and Co don't care about the character. The full quote shows that they do care about the characters and their development, you just don't care for the way they are executing their artistic choices or agree with their assessment. From the full quote's POV they care about the characters enough to move them beyond the trauma and tell stories that aren't bogged down by the traumas of the past.

    Some of us appreciate that approach and aren't so prescriptive as to say that any storytelling we don't like is "lame" or that we would slag a creator as "not caring" because its not to our taste.

    The attacking of creators and hyperbolically demonizing their actions is one of the things that gives comic fans a bad name.
    people complained a lot about lck of character development over guggemhaim, now things it is ok have character development off panel.
    well I continue to complain, because stories are for showing characters going throught things step by step.

    JDW seemed very non worried or caring to show how characters deal with it.

    No one is attacking the creators, it is a critic about how I feel about them in relation to Jean character
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-14-2020 at 11:19 AM.

  7. #52
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Trauma is normal, some people have problems getting over it after decades. there isn't this "Strong people overcome trauma", this is very toxic to trauma and abuse survivors.
    They should at least show some conversation about this.
    Jean has stated on X-men Red and X-force that she doesn't fear death anymore.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    Jean has stated on X-men Red and X-force that she doesn't fear death anymore.
    Yep, I know. Still being hesitant over something that went wrong and bring bad memories is normal.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Trauma is normal, some people have problems getting over it after decades. there isn't this "Strong people overcome trauma", this is very toxic to trauma and abuse survivors.
    They should at least show some conversation about this.
    This goes to a deeper divide than just about funny books. Some people think that trauma should be constantly revisited, that it defines us, and that if you aren't constantly 'processing it' through weekly therapy sessions, you are avoiding it. Some of us abuse survivors (abusive alcoholic parent in my past) take a more CBT approach where stopping the catastrophizing, and feeding the 'trauma' is a way to grow beyond it and yes, overcome it.

    From a CBT pov, its toxic for narratives to reinforce that people never leave their trauma behind and that it always defines you.

    yes, strong people overcome trauma and the secret is that all of us can grow strong enough to do that, if people don't keep telling us that we can't.

    Having the X-Men move on, without dwelling on their therapeutic process, is very cool in my opinion.

  10. #55
    Adorable Carnivore PetPigeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Yep, I know. Still being hesitant over something that went wrong and bring bad memories is normal.
    For some these bad memories may be true, but it's clearly not what Jean feels. You just can't accept that she isn't traumatized over it anymore.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    This goes to a deeper divide than just about funny books. Some people think that trauma should be constantly revisited, that it defines us, and that if you aren't constantly 'processing it' through weekly therapy sessions, you are avoiding it. Some of us abuse survivors (abusive alcoholic parent in my past) take a more CBT approach where stopping the catastrophizing, and feeding the 'trauma' is a way to grow beyond it and yes, overcome it.

    From a CBT pov, its toxic for narratives to reinforce that people never leave their trauma behind and that it always defines you.

    yes, strong people overcome trauma and the secret is that all of us can grow strong enough to do that, if people don't keep telling us that we can't.

    Having the X-Men move on, without dwelling on their therapeutic process, is very cool in my opinion.
    people go for therapeutic proccess to get over, so for me is a lazy way to telling stories.

    strong people? no, people get over things.

    I'm against trauma being revisited many times, but jean traumas aren't even visited. This makes her less of a flawed character and that hurts the character.

  12. #57
    Incredible Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    strong people? no, people get over things.
    When did strong become a dirty word? It takes effort, courage, and emotional strength to face your pain, your weakness, or your deficiencies. It takes strength to be vulnerable enough to say, "I have a problem and I want to get well" and then really put in the effort to do all the things needed to heal. And that process isn't unlike learning the discipline to strengthen one's body or one's mind. Anyone can grow stronger than they currently are and sometimes that's necessary to overcome things that one is currently not strong enough to overcome.

    The person who faces PTSD to become more functional is demonstrating their strength and courage.
    The addict who finally says, "I have a problem and I want to make a change" is demonstrating strength and courage.
    The person who says, "I am breaking the cycle of abuse... even though I don't yet know how" is demonstrating strength and courage.

    If it was easy, everyone would recover from trauma without effort... but they don't.

  13. #58
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    This goes to a deeper divide than just about funny books. Some people think that trauma should be constantly revisited, that it defines us, and that if you aren't constantly 'processing it' through weekly therapy sessions, you are avoiding it. Some of us abuse survivors (abusive alcoholic parent in my past) take a more CBT approach where stopping the catastrophizing, and feeding the 'trauma' is a way to grow beyond it and yes, overcome it.

    From a CBT pov, its toxic for narratives to reinforce that people never leave their trauma behind and that it always defines you.

    yes, strong people overcome trauma and the secret is that all of us can grow strong enough to do that, if people don't keep telling us that we can't.

    Having the X-Men move on, without dwelling on their therapeutic process, is very cool in my opinion.
    Everything we've seen of Jean in Red and in Krakoa indicates that she's already quite moved on from her traumatic past.

    If they were given a panel or two of Jean "processing" they would still say it's not enough-that it was very shoddily executed and lacked depth and agency...they still won't be satisfied. They will never be satisfied.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Everything we've seen of Jean in Red and in Krakoa indicates that she's already quite moved on from her traumatic past.
    Seemed that way to me too.

    If they were given a panel or two of Jean "processing" they would still say it's not enough-that it was very shoddily executed and lacked depth and agency...they still won't be satisfied. They will never be satisfied.
    I know I'm somewhat in the minority on the CBR boards in general, but I just don't understand being as obsessed about comic book characters the way some people are.

  15. #60
    Fantastic Member Husk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Tabby looks like Phi Phi O'Hara in this image. Why is she trapped in these sub-par subplots when the main storyline is so much better and she has history with the New Mutants? Ugh. Also, why are we even wasting time on these stories? Just tell the New Mutants main story without the break.

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