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  1. #61
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    Seemed that way to me too.



    I know I'm somewhat in the minority on the CBR boards in general, but I just don't understand being as obsessed about comic book characters the way some people are.
    I can understand it. But...Character-specific fans take it to a whole different level.

    Personally, I just don't care for nor do I entertain and engage the myopic, narrow-minded performances. Thankfully, ignoring that sort of behaviour is quite easy.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 01-14-2020 at 12:22 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  2. #62
    Fantastic Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I can understand it. But...Character-specific fans take it to a whole different level.

    Personally, I just don't care for nor do I entertain and engage the myopic, narrow-minded performances. Thankfully, ignoring that sort of behaviour is quite easy.
    Good advice. Thanks!

  3. #63
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    If they were given a panel or two of Jean "processing" they would still say it's not enough-that it was very shoddily executed and lacked depth and agency...they still won't be satisfied. They will never be satisfied.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  4. #64
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Which raises an interesting notion...
    As Jean herself died (at Orchis) and was subsequently resurrected...would Jean now even care about those past traumas? They may be viewed as instances of very little psychological and emotional resonance but with very little relevance in this new life.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 01-14-2020 at 02:48 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  5. #65
    Proud Krakoan Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Which raises an interesting notion...
    As Jean herself died (at Orchis) and was subsequently resurrected...would Jean now even care about those past traumas?
    Nope. Jean is living her best life.

    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  6. #66
    Fantastic Member Astroman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Nope. Jean is living her best life.

    As all Krakoans should!

  7. #67
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    As all Krakoans should!
    That's very clearly two women unburdened by psychological and emotional trauma.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Nope. Jean is living her best life.

    Talk about bad characterization going to A to C. Really good example about how writers doesn't develop the characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    When did strong become a dirty word? It takes effort, courage, and emotional strength to face your pain, your weakness, or your deficiencies. It takes strength to be vulnerable enough to say, "I have a problem and I want to get well" and then really put in the effort to do all the things needed to heal. And that process isn't unlike learning the discipline to strengthen one's body or one's mind. Anyone can grow stronger than they currently are and sometimes that's necessary to overcome things that one is currently not strong enough to overcome.

    The person who faces PTSD to become more functional is demonstrating their strength and courage.
    The addict who finally says, "I have a problem and I want to make a change" is demonstrating strength and courage.
    The person who says, "I am breaking the cycle of abuse... even though I don't yet know how" is demonstrating strength and courage.

    If it was easy, everyone would recover from trauma without effort... but they don't.
    I didn't said that it was easy, I was arguing the opposite. It is hard.
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-14-2020 at 03:04 PM.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Year 2022.

    Humanity has been eradicated. The Avengers are dead. Mutants are happy and the universe is at peace. CBR forum posters have finally realized that Krakoa being a fascist cult is the best thing to happen to mutants since Claremont.

    Hordeculture appears in the finale page : oh hey we're back, took a while. This spray kills every mutant and we just dumped it in the atmosphere.

    So ended the tenth life of Moira XI.
    hi yes I would like to nominate this for a Pulitzer

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Everything we've seen of Jean in Red and in Krakoa indicates that she's already quite moved on from her traumatic past.
    I wouldn't expect a telepath able to learn entire new languages and skills in a couple of seconds, and selectively remember, forget or even artificially create or modify any memory, or emotional connection to a memory, she wants, to have *anything* like a 'normal' reaction to trauma. Even if she *didn't* edit or tamp down her own feelings and / or memories, the mere fact that she *could* should give her a sense of empowerment. She's not 'helpless' in the face of anything she's every experienced in the past, she has total control of what she recalls, and what she feels about it, far more than a non-telepath would.

    As for the whole 'strong enough to get over it' digression, people's reactions to trauma are different. Some 'get over it.' Some process it incrementally. Some are trapped by it and could use some guidance and support to find their way through. Some weren't even affected by it in the first place. Some got off on it! Probably best not to use judge-y sounding terms like 'strong,' when people are just different, and what's relatively easy for one person might not even be do-able for another, and not because they are 'weak.' It might indeed require far more 'strength' to face and explore and talk through trauma than to avoid ever thinking about it and pretend it doesn't bother you...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    Talk about bad characterization going to A to C. Really good example about how writers doesn't develop the characters



    I didn't said that it was easy, I was arguing the opposite. It is hard.
    The opposite for me. That was probably the best example of Jean and Emma getting over their bs drama that's been bogging the character down for years. But I do actually have a question how would you have written it in order to resolve the issues between Jean and Emma and bring them to their current relationship with each other? One of cordial friendship.

  12. #72
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I wouldn't expect a telepath able to learn entire new languages and skills in a couple of seconds, and selectively remember, forget or even artificially create or modify any memory, or emotional connection to a memory, she wants, to have *anything* like a 'normal' reaction to trauma. Even if she *didn't* edit or tamp down her own feelings and / or memories, the mere fact that she *could* should give her a sense of empowerment. She's not 'helpless' in the face of anything she's every experienced in the past, she has total control of what she recalls, and what she feels about it, far more than a non-telepath would.

    As for the whole 'strong enough to get over it' digression, people's reactions to trauma are different. Some 'get over it.' Some process it incrementally. Some are trapped by it and could use some guidance and support to find their way through. Some weren't even affected by it in the first place. Some got off on it! Probably best not to use judge-y sounding terms like 'strong,' when people are just different, and what's relatively easy for one person might not even be do-able for another, and not because they are 'weak.' It might indeed require far more 'strength' to face and explore and talk through trauma than to avoid ever thinking about it and pretend it doesn't bother you...
    Personally, these are fictional mutant beings, and therefore I do not judge them by real-world human standards. If the writer indicates to me that she's grown past her emotional traumas, (without any in-panel reason for me to think otherwise)...then I can accept and believe that and move on with the story.

    I do realise everyone is not so blessed with a heightened and healthy sense of Suspension of Disbelief, though so...at this point it's all quite "whatever".
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
    I know I'm somewhat in the minority on the CBR boards in general, but I just don't understand being as obsessed about comic book characters the way some people are.
    Ever watched a soap opera? Engaged soap opera fans? For them, their consumption of the media is about their emotional attachment to the characters. Identifying with them. Empathizing with them. Caring about them and what happens to them. And, no, the vast majority of those fans are not watching ironically out of detached amusement with the kitsch and tropes of the genre; rather, they really feel a connection with the characters.

    The same dynamic applies to comic book fans. Marvel fans, and X-Men fans, in particular. Former Marvel Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter has said comics writers are "in the relationship business"; that emotional attachment is what he's referring to. Historically, it's been central to Marvel Comics' business model as it's what kept repeat customers coming back. Chris Claremont made the X-Men franchise the commercial and critical juggernaut it was by catering to that attachment (in large measure because he felt that attachment himself).

    For X-Men fans accustomed to that approach, Hickman-era X-Men is a radical departure. It's predominantly plot- and concept-driven, leaving most of the characterization, emotion, and juicy relationship stuff off-panel and thus to readers' imaginations. Unless one really, really identifies with the political/ideological metaphor of the story, there's little to no emotional hook. The characters are opaque ciphers acting out the plot. We're not inside their heads. We're mostly not privy to their thoughts or inner feelings. So, there's nothing to care about or get invested in.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Ever watched a soap opera? Engaged soap opera fans? For them, their consumption of the media is about their emotional attachment to the characters. Identifying with them. Empathizing with them. Caring about them and what happens to them. And, no, the vast majority of those fans are not watching ironically out of detached amusement with the kitsch and tropes of the genre; rather, they really feel a connection with the characters.

    The same dynamic applies to comic book fans. Marvel fans, and X-Men fans, in particular. Former Marvel Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter has said comics writers are "in the relationship business"; that emotional attachment is what he's referring to. Historically, it's been central to Marvel Comics' business model as it's what kept repeat customers coming back. Chris Claremont made the X-Men franchise the commercial and critical juggernaut it was by catering to that attachment (in large measure because he felt that attachment himself).

    For X-Men fans accustomed to that approach, Hickman-era X-Men is a radical departure. It's predominantly plot- and concept-driven, leaving most of the characterization, emotion, and juicy relationship stuff off-panel and thus to readers' imaginations. Unless one really, really identifies with the political/ideological metaphor of the story, there's little to no emotional hook. The characters are opaque ciphers acting out the plot. We're not inside their heads. We're mostly not privy to their thoughts or inner feelings. So, there's nothing to care about or get invested in.
    we wouldn't be in a forum if wasn't for some emotional involvement about these characters.

    Shooter was right on it, writers have to make us care for fictional characters

    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    The opposite for me. That was probably the best example of Jean and Emma getting over their bs drama that's been bogging the character down for years. But I do actually have a question how would you have written it in order to resolve the issues between Jean and Emma and bring them to their current relationship with each other? One of cordial friendship.
    "BS drama"? Emma helped Jean get raped and then used Scott to hurt her. That isn't BS drama, that is serious stuff and very . And it happened over beers, freaking disrespectiful

    I wouldn't bring anything, Jean would put how much Emma hurt her and she never felt bad about doing that, stating that she will respect her but she will never be friends with her.
    Last edited by spirit2011; 01-16-2020 at 05:13 PM.

  15. #75
    Fantastic Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    This debate depends heavily in how you feel about "x" character so drawing a conclusion for me is complicated.

    I understand spirit point but If i have to be honest i wasnt bother by that "friendly" panel of Emma-Jean, maybe because it feels right for me maybe because im not heavily involve with any of them. The same thing happen with Scott and Logan but in that case, for me at least, the way Scott and Logan leave old quarrels behind so easily feels not only right but totally in character.

    At the same time, i think we all agree that it would be weird if for some odd reason after a teaming up Spiderman would start treating Osborn with respect or in a friendly way.
    I admit that is a weird example but is the first thing tha comes to my mind, the three cases that i put are probably too diferent to reach a clear conclusion, i just want to point out how the involvement with a character can affect the judgment of a story.

    Other example, many people cant even imagine having Wanda living in Krakoa but i can actually see that coming perfectly.

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