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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Damian hasn't killed anyone in a long time. And really, pointing at Bruce when Clark himself let Jon go with Jor-El, Lois abandoned him there, and so on?

    Pot calling the kettle black.
    He's not wrong though. Bruce's sidekicks are messed up and he is a bad role model. Damian was called out for having an illegal secret jail. Who has always had an illegal secret prison in the Bat cave? Batman. Who bragged about having a secret jail under the JL hQ? Batman.

    Admittedly Damian and co are taking thing's a step further channelling the JL by messing with mind wipes [though unlike the JL they haven't stooped to wiping heroes minds for selfish reasons]

    The TT need supervision and the older heroes need to remember they are role models

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well, he has jon, dick.. Etc. Damian like jon has problems. Averting the dark future was always the crux of the story.
    He has Jon for what? Jon isn't and has never been Damian's mentor. DIck and Bruce are the two people that Damian has ever been shown to look up to and seek to emulate.

  3. #33
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Isn't it possible that Damian goes down a dark path only in the sense that the road hell is paved with good intentions? It's likely him not turning into a cartoon character of a villain but maybe rather something closer to Doctor Doom. Meaning that he's not an unreasonable caricature of a villain, but rather just someone who believes with a mountain of conviction that they know what's right, and that up to this point everyone's been too incompetent to really save the world.

    I found myself wondering what role Damian would play come 5G if Luke is taking over as Batman. If he wasn't gonna take over as Batman then you'd have to do something pretty sizable with his character to make up for that. This makes sense to me.

    I look forward to any possible Reed Richards/Doom or Prof X/Magneto dynamic between Jon and Damian to come out of this. Honestly, it actually is kind of super Naruto/Sasuke lol Hopefully Damian's motivations land better than Sasuke's did.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    He has Jon for what? Jon isn't and has never been Damian's mentor. DIck and Bruce are the two people that Damian has ever been shown to look up to and seek to emulate.
    Friendship not mentorship.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    1st Tim now Damian. Bruce need to look into why his boys are drawn to fascism in particular.

    what did Damian do? eugenics, enforce a police state and deny gothomites their freedom?

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    He has Jon for what? Jon isn't and has never been Damian's mentor. DIck and Bruce are the two people that Damian has ever been shown to look up to and seek to emulate.
    Dude, you are angry because they said damian might turn evil. Well, join the club. How many times has they done the evil superman nonsense? Yet, nobody complains. I never said jon was his mentor. I said, jon generally brings out the postive in damian. Love it or hate it jon has been healthy for damian.Damian has the same tendencies as bruce but in a more bigger manner.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-16-2020 at 09:00 PM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Isn't it possible that Damian goes down a dark path only in the sense that the road hell is paved with good intentions? It's likely him not turning into a cartoon character of a villain but maybe rather something closer to Doctor Doom. Meaning that he's not an unreasonable caricature of a villain, but rather just someone who believes with a mountain of conviction that they know what's right, and that up to this point everyone's been too incompetent to really save the world.

    I found myself wondering what role Damian would play come 5G if Luke is taking over as Batman. If he wasn't gonna take over as Batman then you'd have to do something pretty sizable with his character to make up for that. This makes sense to me.

    I look forward to any possible Reed Richards/Doom or Prof X/Magneto dynamic between Jon and Damian to come out of this. Honestly, it actually is kind of super Naruto/Sasuke lol Hopefully Damian's motivations land better than Sasuke's did.
    TTis doing that right now with Damian. Such stories with Damian aren't original and 100% walk back his whole development and everything his story thus far has been about.

    I don't want a knock /rip off of great dynamic unless they switch it up to subvert expectations. Rather than the LOA conditioned to kill character being the one who falls to the dark let's make it the sungod son of the perfect hero who falls.

    That's what 5G is all about afterall not the usual suspects.

  8. #38
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Rather than the LOA conditioned to kill character being the one who falls to the dark let's make it the sungod son of the perfect hero who falls.

    That's what 5G is all about afterall not the usual suspects.
    This feels like you're strangely not taking into account the trend DC has had with Superman for the past few decades. One of the oldest and most used plot points is a Superman going bad (and usually a Batman having to bring him in). The DCEU, Injustice, the Justice Lords Superman, Superman under Darkseid's control, Red Son, King of The World, Kingdom Come, Dark Knight Returns, Superboy Prime, Earth-2 (New 52), and whatever else I'm forgetting (not even taking into account the glut of evil Superman stand in stories and characters out there (Homelander from The Boys and Brightbrun)) are all stories about.

    Lets also not forget Conner Kent growing up to become the fascist Black Zero or the down right evil Superman of the future in Titans Tomorrow. Or how bout after that where he gets mind controlled and breaks his best friend's arm and beats his girlfriend to a bloody mess. Or how about the fact that he's part Lex Luthor and we spent much of his publication in the early 2000s having him wonder if he'd eventually go bad. Or how about during the New 52 where he's used to hunt down the Teen Titans?

    Heck, Supergirl's book makes her go evil for at least an arc or two every year. Outside of Gordon, how come there aren't any Batman characters getting tainted by The Batman Who Laughs?

    We also can't possibly forget Jon Lane Kent, the shocking dull and uninspired Jon Kent that was just before the good one we have now. That kid literally killed every single metahuman on his Earth.

    That's also not even taking into account the fact that within just two years of publication Jon Sam Kent had several almost back-to-back stories about him possibly falling from the side of the angels. And then in Super Sons of Tomorrow he, at the ripe old age of 10, apparently just *needed* to be murdered because he'd end up killing thousands of people in the future.

    And of course there's the fact he spent years and years on an Earth that can aptly be described as just inherently bad.

    By this point the surprising and novel idea would be that even through the alternate bad futures, evil Englishmen trying to turn him dark, and evil versions of his dad on an evil Earth trying to turn him bad that power doesn't actually have to corrupt. That's what being Superman is about.

    DC's 2020 hot take on the idea of a Superman may just be "we can just let him be good".

    Now don't get it twisted, I'm not actively advocating for an evil version of Damian (morally gray? sure) by breaking down all this. I'm just sayin'.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 01-16-2020 at 10:40 PM.
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  9. #39
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    TTis doing that right now with Damian. Such stories with Damian aren't original and 100% walk back his whole development and everything his story thus far has been about.

    I don't want a knock /rip off of great dynamic unless they switch it up to subvert expectations. Rather than the LOA conditioned to kill character being the one who falls to the dark let's make it the sungod son of the perfect hero who falls.

    That's what 5G is all about afterall not the usual suspects.
    Nah! This is better.This the classic batman fans vs superman fans argument. Dude, how many times has the perfect sun god fallen. That isn't original. It's time the reverse happens. A batman family member falls. A superman family member stays strong.And don't bring the perfect nonsense. Bruce wayne is a kantian as clark kent. Even more so.having an optimistic demeanour doesn't make someone perfect. Being a brooding pessimist doesn't make someone kewl.
    If jon can remain strong after getting tortured by Manchester black, his own grandfather's trying to influence him, getting stuck, tortured, growing up inside a volcano. He can go strong regardless of what happens.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    TTis doing that right now with Damian. Such stories with Damian aren't original and 100% walk back his whole development and everything his story thus far has been about.

    I don't want a knock /rip off of great dynamic unless they switch it up to subvert expectations. Rather than the LOA conditioned to kill character being the one who falls to the dark let's make it the sungod son of the perfect hero who falls.

    That's what 5G is all about afterall not the usual suspects.
    "Hello fellow Superfans, how about my fresh original take where Super character goes bad and Bat character remains paragon?"

    That's been tired since 1986. Please. The only tales DC wants to tell now are "Superman goes bad, Batman must stop because HUMANITY LIMITLESS."

    Maybe, just maybe, the story really should be good people can make a difference in troubled lives. Maybe we don't have to dump on one character to prop the others up. Damian is destined to be NuHitler? Fine. Won't be the first time these characters fight fate. I will never understand the fascination with watching superheros fail and become villains. More often than not in superhero comics, "subverting expectations" boils down to "I will deliver a twist you didn't see coming because it's terrible and you were expecting a good payoff. Thanks for the money!"
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-16-2020 at 11:09 PM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    "Hello fellow Superfans, how about my fresh original take where Super character goes bad and Bat character remains paragon?"

    That's been tired since 1986. Please. The only tales DC wants to tell now are "Superman goes bad, Batman must stop because HUMANITY LIMITLESS."

    Maybe, just maybe, the story really should be good people can make a difference in troubled lives. Maybe we don't have to dump on one character to prop the others up. Damian is destined to be NuHitler? Fine. Won't be the first time these characters fight fate. I will never understand the fascination with watching superheros fail and become villains. More often than not in superhero comics, "subverting expectations" boils down to "I will deliver a twist you didn't see coming because it's terrible and you were expecting a good payoff. Thanks for the money!"
    I agree, i don't believe damian will go bad. Its just a possibility like jon going nuclear.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    The thing with a corrupted Superman is that they have to essentially weaken him from the get go to make it works. Somehow he always had a flaw and it just remained dormant this long (like in Injustice) or he was brainwashed or it's not even really Superman (like Brutaal on New 52's Earth 2). Because while he constantly see the worst of Mankind, he also sees the best, so it's kind of hard to sell to him that humans are doomed to be monsters/evil/whatever.

    The Bats are much more driven by will and convictions and have a far narrower scope of the world and its working, even if they are far from living in an isolated place. It isn't as ridiculous as Supermn turning for the whatever time to see a Bat character going off the rail, because while his or her will remains intact, it's his/her convictions which have shifted. And it makes for a far more interesting antagonist because, if used well (not like Savior thus) it can lead to an opponent who could just as well be seen as a hero by others.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Steering the conversation back to LoSH #3 and away from the usual Evil Superman v Batman conversation of which I'm as guilty of indulging as any, can we take a moment to appreciate just how damn good these books look?

    Sook and Cheung on covers with Sook and Moore on interiors? Bendis continues to amass the top of DC's artistic talent. Johns better hold on to Frank.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    No I'm taking it all into consideration. All the elseworlds where Supes goes evil and all the canon stories where batman conditions his kids to view physical abuse as a form of communication. Has apparently raised 2 would be hitlers, sends his non powered kids to their death and then easily replaces them. Batman in canon is a long way from the grey and that's just his norm and not an elseworld.

    This is without touching on Metal, brother eye and other nefarious things that he has done.
    But we are not talking about Batman and Superman. Superlad was pitching a direction for Robin and Superboy. We have seen Robins go down a dark path multiple times it'd be more interesting to see an alternative. Even better why don't we just let these characters develop and find their way organically like Tim/Kon, Jason/Biz They don't have to be tied to each other. One doesn't have to go bad so we can explore some trope.

    I didn't think I would get much support for my idea just wanted to see the responses to what you so casually pitched for another character

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    No I'm taking it all into consideration. All the elseworlds where Supes goes evil and all the canon stories where batman conditions his kids to view physical abuse as a form of communication. Has apparently raised 2 would be hitlers, sends his non powered kids to their death and then easily replaces them. Batman in canon is a long way from the grey and that's just his norm and not an elseworld.

    This is without touching on Metal, brother eye and other nefarious things that he has done.
    But we are not talking about Batman and Superman. Superlad was pitching a direction for Robin and Superboy. We have seen Robins go down a dark path multiple times it'd be more interesting to see an alternative. Even better why don't we just let these characters develop and find their way organically like Tim/Kon, Jason/Biz They don't have to be tied to each other. One doesn't have to go bad so we can explore some trope.

    I didn't think I would get much support for my idea just wanted to see the responses to what you so casually pitched for another character
    All supercharacters including jon has been foreshadowed to go bad or go boom more than all robins and bats. So, Even with robins Ratio is still pretty skewed. Tell you what? Let's put the counterbalance first. You know, cobra kai style. Then we can wish, they stop with the going evil thing all together. But, i don't think they will.

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