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  1. #46
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    As I said, you apply real world standards into a fictional world that has long lost similarities with the real one. Do you think that's profiling? It isn't. Or more precisely, it is, but the reasons that make racial profiling wrong do not apply to it. The color of the skin does not make anyone more or less dangerous than any other, thus racial profiling is wrong. But having superpowers does make someone objetively more dangerous than those who don't. If someone does not like his powers and does not intend to use them, they shouldn't have a problem with the police coming to remove their powers from them. It would be the same principle than with guns: you can have them if you follow the specific laws and regulations, or not at all. Remember, by the way, that having an undeclared weapon is a crime, even if you keep it locked in a drawer and never use it.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree. This is what I believe: regardless of whether you have superpowers or not, a crime is a crime. If you commit a crime, yes, you are punishable by law (after due process has been observed). If you do not, then no one has any reason to regard you suspiciously, assuming your guilt before innocence. Anyone can be dangerous, whether you have powers or not. Hell, there are a number of characters all of us could name off the top of our heads without superpowers who are dangerous: Fisk, Batroc, Punisher, etc. Just because you may possess a superpower, like say, super strength, does not mean you're going to use it for nefarious reasons. Superpowers are a part of a person, like a limb or an organ, demanding they be removed is like demanding one should give up one of their senses. Especially if you are accustomed to living with them, as both Luke and Jessica, for example, are. Moreover, their daughter was born with her powers. Do you think a baby should be forced to undergo a procedure to remove her powers? Just the thought is heinous to me. It seems ridiculous that good people should be punished and have their lives put at risk by the placing of their names on a list that almost fell into the hands of Norman Osborn and for what? For nothing. For trying to live a life. The only people who should have been under suspicion for Stamford were the people directly involved with the incident. I'm not budging on this.

  2. #47
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    So if Cyclops types randomly develop their uncontrollable powers in a schoolroom at puberty, and kill all the kids in front of them, and a line of kids in the room next door, and the room after that, for about a mile, you would still oppose genetic testing on children to see if they are going to develop such an uncontrollable power? You won't even consider a medical solution to that possibility, because removing a cyclops beam is exactly morally equivalent to removing dark skin or monolid eyes?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    So if Cyclops types randomly develop their uncontrollable powers in a schoolroom at puberty, and kill all the kids in front of them, and a line of kids in the room next door, and the room after that, for about a mile, you would still oppose genetic testing on children to see if they are going to develop such an uncontrollable power? You won't even consider a medical solution to that possibility, because removing a cyclops beam is exactly morally equivalent to removing dark skin or monolid eyes?
    man this reminded me of stuff like this from the recent marvel comics


  4. #49
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    like, everyone in the real world can agree: Genocide is bad.

    But then in fictional universes you have cartoonishly evil races like the brood or the annihilation wave in marvel or the reapers from mass effect or daleks from dr who and you're like...???

    though when it comes to the shra ironically it was damage control (aka the government) supplying MGH to nitro that caused the disaster in the first place.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    like, everyone in the real world can agree: Genocide is bad.

    But then in fictional universes you have cartoonishly evil races like the brood or the annihilation wave in marvel or the reapers from mass effect or daleks from dr who and you're like...???

    though when it comes to the shra ironically it was damage control (aka the government) supplying MGH to nitro that caused the disaster in the first place.
    Of course, because Marvel doesn't reeeally want the issue to be discussed in way that would lead to a logical conclusion they didn't like. So they flirt with the issue to make the story seem complex, then reveal that the person threatening the status quo is really an irredeemable monster who caused all this as part of his dastardly scheme to torture puppies and kittens.

    So if a story about people wanting to genetically test kids to prevent a Cyclops type from accidentally slaughtering his classroom when his powers manifested at puberty ever saw print, it would soon be revealed that the people behind it really didn't care about that issue, but really just pretended to as part of their scheme to plunge the universe into infinite agony forever.

    And then it would be completely brushed under the rug that Cyclops types accidentally murdering their classrooms when they manifested their powers was still a legitimate issue, despite the people bringing it up that one time being monstrous villains.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    So if Cyclops types randomly develop their uncontrollable powers in a schoolroom at puberty, and kill all the kids in front of them, and a line of kids in the room next door, and the room after that, for about a mile, you would still oppose genetic testing on children to see if they are going to develop such an uncontrollable power? You won't even consider a medical solution to that possibility, because removing a cyclops beam is exactly morally equivalent to removing dark skin or monolid eyes?
    In your scenario there was no crime. It would be a tragic accident that, very unfortunately and heartbreakingly, resulted in the loss of life, like a hurricane or an earthquake. But there was no actual intent to commit harm in the scenario you provided. But if you're asking if the government should be allowed to order the X-Men to have their genetics altered at birth to be dormant, just based on the off chance that the powers may manifest in a dangerous manner, then my answer would be that the government, in that scenario, would be massively overstepping their bounds and committing a human rights violation to do so.

    Whether in possession of a superpower or not, every person in the Marvel Universe makes the decision whether to do good or whether to commit harm. This is true of everybody. Those who make the decision to commit harm should be held responsible for any harm they intentionally cause, those who do not should be free to live their lives as any other citizen of the planet would.

    Freewill, it's a marvelous and wonderful thing. So too is self-accountability. If someone messes up? Courthouse for you. But otherwise, enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness without feeling persecuted for existing.

    I'm not getting what is so hard to grasp about this. And anyway, it's a mute point because we're arguing morals now, and I'm not compromising mine.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    man this reminded me of stuff like this from the recent marvel comics

    And what about the perspective of everybody else? Would someone be a racist if he fears that a mutant may suddenly destroy a whole city (and that wouldn't be hyperbole, but something that can actually happen in that world, as your pic illustrates) and desire some way to prevent that from happening?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    In your scenario there was no crime. It would be a tragic accident that, very unfortunately and heartbreakingly, resulted in the loss of life, like a hurricane or an earthquake. But there was no actual intent to commit harm in the scenario you provided. But if you're asking if the government should be allowed to order the X-Men to have their genetics altered at birth to be dormant, just based on the off chance that the powers may manifest in a dangerous manner, then my answer would be that the government, in that scenario, would be massively overstepping their bounds and committing a human rights violation to do so.

    Whether in possession of a superpower or not, every person in the Marvel Universe makes the decision whether to do good or whether to commit harm. This is true of everybody. Those who make the decision to commit harm should be held responsible for any harm they intentionally cause, those who do not should be free to live their lives as any other citizen of the planet would.

    Freewill, it's a marvelous and wonderful thing. So too is self-accountability. If someone messes up? Courthouse for you. But otherwise, enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness without feeling persecuted for existing.

    I'm not getting what is so hard to grasp about this. And anyway, it's a mute point because we're arguing morals now, and I'm not compromising mine.
    I don't think anyone is saying they have intent to harm or commit a crime here with their powers
    this is closer to riding a bike without a helmet or license, which can be finable in many countries.

    another thing about free will, like in the example I posted, it doesn't play into. The person didn't have an intent to harm, they can't control how their power operates, they didn't even know they could have it and harm happens regardless. Is it that outlandish or immoral to have some screening process? There's many such cases, like with matthew malloy, will evans etc.

    like yeah, eveeryone acknowledges just how overboard the events actually went, but thats to generate conflict
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 01-15-2020 at 03:13 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    And what about the perspective of everybody else? Would someone be a racist if he fears that a mutant may suddenly destroy a whole city (and that wouldn't be hyperbole, but something that can actually happen in that world, as your pic illustrates) and desire some way to prevent that from happening?
    depends
    in the days of future past comic, kate/kitty didn't consider senator kelly to be bad, just misguided and having some very reasonable concerns about mutant-kind
    however, at the same time, it's put against a backdrop of an apocalyptic scenario where there's overkill

    like yeah, it's super racist to just go after someone who's power amounts of being able to breathe underwater in mobs to lynch the kid, especially by purifiers who simply consider the kids to abominations and blow up even a bus of depowered mutants.

  10. #55
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    Another thing I have about the SHRA... you don't need to reveal your identity to the government or to the public

    In the she hulk book, they managed to get spider-man to court and confirm that it was indeed spider-man by crossreferencing some biometric data

  11. #56
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying they have intent to harm or commit a crime here with their powers
    this is closer to riding a bike without a helmet or license, which can be finable in many countries.

    another thing about free will, like in the example I posted, it doesn't play into. The person didn't have an intent to harm, they can't control how their power operates, they didn't even know they could have it and harm happens regardless. Is it that outlandish or immoral to have some screening process? There's many such cases, like with matthew malloy, will evans etc.
    Anytime you attempt to identify someone as 'other', especially for something out of their control, it is wrong. Especially if the person becomes defined by the discovered trait instead of by their character, thus robbing them of their humanity.

    Innocence until proven guilty. Freewill. These are basic, and dare I say, unalienable, rights. We would be no better than Carol's side in Civil War 2 if we assumed a worse case scenario because of a trait someone was born with and then forced medical procedures on them, before they're old enough to consent to such a thing being performed on their person, based on what 'might' happen.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Anytime you attempt to identify someone as 'other', especially for something out of their control, it is wrong. Especially if the person becomes defined by the discovered trait instead of by their character, thus robbing them of their humanity.

    Innocence until proven guilty. Freewill. These are basic, and dare I say, unalienable, rights. We would be no better than Carol's side in Civil War 2 if we assumed a worse case scenario because of a trait someone was born with and then forced medical procedures on them, before they're old enough to consent to such a thing being performed on their person, based on what 'might' happen.
    vaccination irl is probably another issue that bears some similarity
    the child is completely innocent, even as they grow up they would be. But at the same time, without meaning to, they can cause outbreaks, because freewill cannot stop them from contracting a disease.

    Compulsory vaccination has been used in the past and even in the present. This can be seen infringing upon a person's liberty, but at the same time being unvaccinated has a possibility to cause great harm. Some think it should have it compulsory if you wanna attend schools (not unlike if registration was compulsory if you intended to use your powers to be a hero as was the case in some books, though as you showed it was also in many others portrayed as compulsory if you had powers at all)

    of course, people end up protesting eventually anyway, but at the same time you end up with a measles epidemic, no win situation really except convincing everyone to voluntarily take the stuff.

    it doesn't have to be the fascist strawman of civil wars where they can't come up with anything but overreaches for conflict nd drama instead of sensibly dealing with the situation.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 01-15-2020 at 03:52 PM.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    vaccination irl is probably another issue that bears some similarity
    the child is completely innocent, even as they grow up they would be. But at the same time, without meaning to, they can cause outbreaks, because freewill cannot stop them from contracting a disease.

    Compulsory vaccination has been used in the past and even in the present. This can be seen infringing upon a person's liberty, but at the same time being unvaccinated has a possibility to cause great harm. Some think it should have it compulsory if you wanna attend schools (not unlike if registration was compulsory if you intended to use your powers to be a hero as was the case in some books, though as you showed it was also in many others portrayed as compulsory if you had powers at all)

    of course, people end up protesting eventually anyway, but at the same time you end up with a measles epidemic, no win situation really except convincing everyone to voluntarily take the stuff.

    it doesn't have to be the fascist strawman of civil wars where they can't come up with anything but overreaches for conflict nd drama instead of sensibly dealing with the situation.
    Vaccinations are not altering a trait inherent to a person, or removing a feature from them. It's a different situation entirely and not really comparable.

    That said I do agree with you on one thing, Civil War was a silly set-up. And could have been prevented, entirely, if it went down like this:

    Tony: Hey Steve, thanks for joining me for lunch. I already ordered you a coke zero. So the government is threatening to sic the sentinels on us if we don't sign this highly ethically questionable law. I have my immense team of lawyers on it already, no worries. There are definitely things contained within it that I feel we can fight and get removed, and other things, like hey, health care and training for potential superheroes, sounds like a pretty good idea. Anyway, I just wanted to give you a heads-up that this is happening so you wont be blindsided when SHIELD brings it up to you. We can go over the thing together if you want, I'm certainly willing to hear your suggestions.

    Steve: Thank you Tony, I appreciate your letting me know. I would love to go over it with you.

    The end.

    But, admittedly, this book, all of one page consisting of two panels, probably wouldn't have sold well.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-15-2020 at 04:17 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Vaccinations are not altering a trait inherent to a person, or removing a feature from them. It's a different situation entirely and not really comparable.
    as I said "bears some similarity"
    vaccinations alter your body's natural state of immunity through medical intervention as opposed to naturally acquired immunity. They're also an example of a medical procedure that can be put on a person in opposition to liberty. Without said medical procedure epidemics may happen. there may even be "othering" of unvaccinated or au natural kids. stuff like that.

    there aren't any actual real world analogues to something as destructive as superpowers, it's the closest i could think of really

    furthermore most of the powers inhibition tech in marvel is reversible entirely so it doesn't permanently alter or remove anything.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 01-15-2020 at 04:47 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    like, everyone in the real world can agree: Genocide is bad.

    But then in fictional universes you have cartoonishly evil races like the brood or the annihilation wave in marvel or the reapers from mass effect or daleks from dr who and you're like...???

    though when it comes to the shra ironically it was damage control (aka the government) supplying MGH to nitro that caused the disaster in the first place.
    Damage Control was actually a corporation in the original comics, and at the time headed by a corrupt scumbag like Walter Declun who was supplying MGH to Nitro and other supervillains in the expectation that their enhanced powers would cause greater damage, leading to more profitable reconstruction contracts. It was the MCU (Spider-Man: Homecoming, to be precise) that made it a government agency, sponsored by Tony Stark, no less, after the first Avengers movie.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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