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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Damage Control was actually a corporation in the original comics, and at the time headed by a corrupt scumbag like Walter Declun who was supplying MGH to Nitro and other supervillains in the expectation that their enhanced powers would cause greater damage, leading to more profitable reconstruction contracts. It was the MCU (Spider-Man: Homecoming, to be precise) that made it a government agency, sponsored by Tony Stark, no less, after the first Avengers movie.
    wow ur totally right my bad

  2. #62
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    as I said "bears some similarity"
    vaccinations alter your body's natural state of immunity through medical intervention as opposed to naturally acquired immunity. They're also an example of a medical procedure that can be put on a person in opposition to liberty.
    Point One, since you insist on debating this:

    Vaccinations are given to everybody, regardless of gender or ethnicity.

    Point Two:

    Again, they don't change a trait. In most cases they are a dormant version of the virus/infection, to help your body build up an immunity. It is, essentially, training your T and B cells to guard against said virus should you be introduced to it through natural means. In some cases the vaccination will be a live virus, but a weakened version of it. Either way, receiving a vaccination is enhancing a trait that's already there, i.e. your immune system. It did not introduce your immune system and it is not removing it. So, I'm sorry, but that example is a false equivalence.

    But yes, the SHRA would have been improved by voluntary registration instead of forced conscription.

  3. #63
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    Depends on what you mean by "voluntary registration". We don't allow policemen and soldiers to decide whether they will be regulated by democratic institutions. When cops and soldiers are free, no one else is.

  4. #64
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    vaccination irl is probably another issue that bears some similarity
    the child is completely innocent, even as they grow up they would be. But at the same time, without meaning to, they can cause outbreaks, because freewill cannot stop them from contracting a disease.

    Compulsory vaccination has been used in the past and even in the present. This can be seen infringing upon a person's liberty, but at the same time being unvaccinated has a possibility to cause great harm. Some think it should have it compulsory if you wanna attend schools (not unlike if registration was compulsory if you intended to use your powers to be a hero as was the case in some books, though as you showed it was also in many others portrayed as compulsory if you had powers at all)

    of course, people end up protesting eventually anyway, but at the same time you end up with a measles epidemic, no win situation really except convincing everyone to voluntarily take the stuff.

    it doesn't have to be the fascist strawman of civil wars where they can't come up with anything but overreaches for conflict nd drama instead of sensibly dealing with the situation.
    For a comic book story, it does have to something which over reaches for conflict and drama, because a sensible law fairly implemented which no one has a problem with would make for a very very boring story. The point of this is to generate conflict and drama for entertainment value. It's a super hero story, not CSPAN.

    But that aside, there's a very simply reason why the SHRA we got wasn't sensible. Because sensible reasons one might implement a superhuman registration act basically had nothing to do with the actual reasons the people were implementing it in the first place. Remember that the list of identities the government collected weren't kept by the US government... just SHIELD and Stark. Which tells you one thing... the government didn't actually give a dam about accountability. All they wanted was an excuse to build themselves a superhero army... once they got what they wanted, by whatever means necessary, they stopped caring about the rest.

    The SHRA, while inherently unlawful, DOES legitimately have a reasonable rationale behind it. But because no one actually gave a dam about any of that, we ended up getting what we got instead.

  5. #65
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Depends on what you mean by "voluntary registration". We don't allow policemen and soldiers to decide whether they will be regulated by democratic institutions. When cops and soldiers are free, no one else is.
    Not really a comparable example though. You're not forced to be a police officer. It's a choice. And when you choose to do that for a living, in theory you're choosing to be regulated by whatever institutions the police department serves. If you don't want to be regulared by such institutions, don't be a cop.

    But plenty of meta humans weren't given a choice in being meta human.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Not really a comparable example though. You're not forced to be a police officer. It's a choice. And when you choose to do that for a living, in theory you're choosing to be regulated by whatever institutions the police department serves. If you don't want to be regulared by such institutions, don't be a cop.

    But plenty of meta humans weren't given a choice in being meta human.
    I wasn't talking about metahumans, I was talking about superheroes. Of course, this is hardly the first time the fuzzy line between a metahuman and a superhero has caused confusion. They are really two separate issues that are blurred together both by people discussing it in threads like these, and the comics themselves.

    The issue with metahumans is that some have Cyclops-like powers that are massive health-hazards regardless of intent, and which make comparing them to people with harmless racial differences very dubious.

    The issue with superheroes is that they have volunteered for a role in society that combines policemen and soldier yet many are unwilling to accept the regulations that keep policemen and soldiers from being monsters.

    Two very separate issues which both debates and the comics themselves blur.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 01-15-2020 at 05:19 PM.

  7. #67
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    I wasn't talking about metahumans, I was talking about superheroes. Of course, this is hardly the first time the fuzzy line between a metahuman and a superhero has caused confusion.
    But the problem is that this wasn't a super HERO registration act. It was a super HUMAN registration act.

    If it were purely a super hero registration act, it could have avoided a lot of the issues that it had. It STILL would have had some problems... but people wouldn't be attacked by SHIELD for sitting on their living room couch.

  8. #68
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    Well then I oppose that version of it, we are in agreement and moving on.

    Now, onto the issue of superheroes being unwilling to accept the regulations that keep policemen and soldiers from being monsters.
    Last edited by MichaelC; 01-15-2020 at 05:28 PM.

  9. #69
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Well then I oppose that version of it, we are in agreement and moving on.

    Now, onto the issues of superheroes being unwilling to accept the regulations that keep policemen and soldiers from being monsters.
    Again though, most super heroes never agreed to follow such regulations in the first place. Prior to the SHRA, they didn't work for the government. If any super hero voluntarily signs up to work with the government then YES they should be expected to follow whatever regulalations the government gives them. The government effectively becomes their boss.

    But it was probably a bit naive to assume that the heroes who werent' working for the governemnt (which was basically 99% of them) would start following the governments orders.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Depends on what you mean by "voluntary registration". We don't allow policemen and soldiers to decide whether they will be regulated by democratic institutions. When cops and soldiers are free, no one else is.
    Policemen/policewomen decide they want to to be policemen/policewomen. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "you have to go to the police academy or else". If that is what you want as your career, more power to you! Freewill to decide your trade is but grand thing. But if you'd rather be a chef, that's great, too.

    The SHRA forced everyone with superpowers to sign or they were put in a prison with dirt floors, no medical treatment, and not given so much as a dirty mattress, or any mattress at all, while they slowly went mad because that's what the Negative Zone does. Or, worse, because as hard as it is to believe there is a worse, yet the pro-registration side certainly brought their 'worse game', it got you killed by an evil Thor clone the pro-registration side created to hunt you down without any deference to what real!Thor might think of that. Or hey, if you prefer, your fate could have been being hunted by murderers the pro-registration side let out of prison specifically to hunt you down and beat you nearly to death, then get bridle carried by Frank Castle while you desperately try to cling to life. So many fun options.

    Do we see the difference between choosing a profession then following the rules of that profession voluntarily and being conscripted? Because there is a huge whomping difference.

    The Avengers were not opposed to regulation. They had a charter. They were a non-state actor with the UN. How do we know this? Because that status was lost to them, get this, for bad behavior. Or rather, possessed!Wanda induced bad behavior, otherwise known as Bendis-really-hates-female-characters-he-didn't-create-himself-and-Wanda-in-particular, otherwise known as Avengers Disassembled.

    So hey, obey the rules, you keep your non-state actor status and are backed by the UN, disobey the rules/protocol/guideline and you get booted, like any job. Like being a policeman/policewoman. This was already a thing associated with being an Avenger.

    This is the third time I had to bring this up and you keep ignoring it. Do you need a panel? Okay, here:



    What Steve and the others were protesting was the SHRA IN PARTICULAR because it was a bs, human-rights violating, law. One with which, within seconds of hearing about it, Steve was shot at for, before the thing had even passed. But hey, at least he came out of this whole experience alive, unlike poor Bill Foster... OH WAIT.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 01-15-2020 at 05:50 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Point One, since you insist on debating this:

    Vaccinations are given to everybody, regardless of gender or ethnicity.

    Point Two:

    Again, they don't change a trait. In most cases they are a dormant version of the virus/infection, to help your body build up an immunity. It is, essentially, training your T and B cells to guard against said virus should you be introduced to it through natural means. In some cases the vaccination will be a live virus, but a weakened version of it. Either way, receiving a vaccination is enhancing a trait that's already there, i.e. your immune system. It did not introduce your immune system and it is not removing it. So, I'm sorry, but that example is a false equivalence.

    But yes, the SHRA would have been improved by voluntary registration instead of forced conscription.
    vaccines are given to everyone because everyone is capable of being a carrier. In a hypothetical mutant only society, these measures would still apply and can be self implemented

    and while im aware all it does it teach your system to recognize an antigen and create antibodies, thus upregulating the production of certain types of memory b-cells, it is still perceived as seminatural by many groups.
    Hypothetically, in marvel a similar medicine can target and enhance only the naturally occurring inhibitory mechanisms (which can be trained without the medicine), upregulating them so that the trait itself isn't removed, but involuntary activation is suppressed.
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 01-15-2020 at 05:49 PM.

  12. #72
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    vaccines are given to everyone because everyone is capable of being a carrier. In a hypothetical mutant only society, these measures would still apply and can be self implemented

    and while im aware all it does it teach your system to recognize an antigen and create antibodies, thus upregulating the production of certain types of memory b-cells, it is still perceived as seminatural by many groups.
    Hypothetically, in marvel a similar medicine can target and enhance only the naturally occurring inhibitory mechanisms (which can be trained without the medicine), upregulating them so that the trait itself isn't removed, but involuntary activation is suppressed.
    I'm not going to get into anti-vaxxers in a thread about comics. Seriously. Especially as they have no scientific backing for their beliefs and the guy who originally claimed that vaccinations caused autism was not only proven wrong but had his license to practice yanked. He was, in other words, publicly disgraced. And good riddance.

    You have a pre-existing immune system prior to getting vaccinated. The introduction of a vaccination does not create one. Nor does it take it away. The comparison was a false equivalence. Forcing children to have their superpowers removed is an entirely different discussion. I'm not budging, so, moving on...

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Policemen/policewomen decide they want to to be policemen/policewomen. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "you have to go to the police academy or else". If that is what you want as your career, more power to you! Freewill to decide your trade is but grand thing. But if you'd rather be a chef, that's great, too.

    The SHRA forced everyone with superpowers to sign or they were put in a prison with dirt floors, no medical treatment, and not given so much as a dirty mattress, or any mattress at all, while they slowly went mad because that's what the Negative Zone does. Or, worse, because as hard as it is to believe there is a worse, yet the pro-registration side certainly brought their 'worse game', it got you killed by an evil Thor clone the pro-registration side created to hunt you down without any deference to what real!Thor might think of that. Or hey, if you prefer, your fate could have been being hunted by murderers the pro-registration side let out of prison specifically to hunt you down and beat you nearly to death, then get bridle carried by Frank Castle while you desperately try to cling to life. So many fun options.

    Do we see the difference between choosing a profession then following the rules of that profession voluntarily and being conscripted? Because there is a huge whomping difference.

    The Avengers were not opposed to regulation. They had a charter. They were a non-state actor with the UN. How do we know this? Because that status was lost to them, get this, for bad behavior. Or rather, possessed!Wanda induced bad behavior, otherwise known as Bendis-really-hates-female-characters-he-didn't-create-himself-and-Wanda-in-particular, otherwise known as Avengers Disassembled.

    So hey, obey the rules, you keep your non-state actor status and are backed by the UN, disobey the rules/protocol/guideline and you get booted, like any job. Like being a policeman/policewoman. This was already a thing associated with being an Avenger.

    This is the third time I had to bring this up and you keep ignoring it. Do you need a panel? Okay, here:



    What Steve and the others were protesting was the SHRA IN PARTICULAR because it was a bs, human-rights violating, law. One with which, within seconds of hearing about it, Steve was shot at for, before the thing had even passed. But hey, at least he came out of this whole experience alive, unlike poor Bill Foster... OH WAIT.
    I'm not ignoring, I'm repeatedly conceding it and trying to move on to related subjects. Do you want it stated in really blunt terms? I concede that the version of the SHRA in most books was an evil law implemented by evil people. We done?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I'm not going to get into anti-vaxxers in a thread about comics. Seriously. Especially as they have no scientific backing for their beliefs and the guy who originally claimed that vaccinations caused autism was not only proven wrong but had his license to practice yanked. He was, in other words, publicly disgraced. And good riddance.

    You have a pre-existing immune system prior to getting vaccinated. The introduction of a vaccination does not create one. Nor does it take it away. The comparison was a false equivalence. Forcing children to have their superpowers removed is an entirely different discussion. I'm not budging, so, moving on...
    i didn't say anything about antivaxxers or autism

    neither did I say anything about forcing children to have their powers removed.

    Youre not budging from a point im not making.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    i didn't say anything about antivaxxers or autism

    neither did I say anything about forcing children to have their powers removed.

    Youre not budging from a point im not making.
    This was the conversation you were responding to...




    So yes, the conversation was about the moral and ethical implications about forcibly removing powers from children, which I feel is a human rights violation and wrong and am firmly against. You trying to move the goalpost now doesn't change that.

    Now, seriously, I'm done.

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