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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    You trying to move the goalpost now doesn't change that.
    No need for that accusation.
    My focus was on reversible or naturally enhanced inhibition to prevent spontaneous involuntary activation among the sea of ideas of how to manage the issue and prevent disasters like that as I presented, and drew an analogue to the harmless vaccination
    Last edited by Ichijinijisanji; 01-15-2020 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Well then I oppose that version of it, we are in agreement and moving on.

    Now, onto the issue of superheroes being unwilling to accept the regulations that keep policemen and soldiers from being monsters.
    I would chime in, given all the scandals and controversies surrounding police officers and military soldiers, that regulations didn't necessarily stop a number of them from committing all kinds of heinous acts against the citizens or civilians they were supposed to protect. Relating this to Civil War and its immediate aftermath, the SHRA didn't stop murderous villains like Bullseye from continuing to be murderous villains; it just gave them state-issued carte blanche to be as murderous and villainous as they wanted and have it be dressed up as heroism because of their targets' status as "unregistered combatants." Similarly, it's an unfortunate fact of life in the real world that some if not a lot of the people we entrust to protect and serve or to fight for the good of the country are just there because it gives them a sense of power over others, which consequently gets abused, with soldiers and officers being willing to cover for the bad actors in their ranks because of a code of silence that is in some ways no better than "stop snitching." Even worse, due to their positions of trust and authority in society, they are seen as uniformly above reproach and even innately justified, which gets in the way of genuine accountability. After all, how are regulations supposed to keep police officers and soldiers from being monsters if the people in charge and the general public don't believe they need to be enforced with actual meaningful penalties should they be broken or violated?

    In summary: If regular police officers and soldiers in real life can still behave heinously and corruptly despite the regulations they supposedly serve under, what kinds of regulations would seriously stop corrupt superhumans in a fictional setting like the Marvel Universe from doing as they wish to whomever they wish?
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #78
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    Whoa, this blew up. What's been going on here?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Whoa, this blew up. What's been going on here?
    Basically, a debate/argument/discussion on the morality of the SHRA, or lack thereof, and whether or not the SHRA was a strawman fallacy demonizing those arguing for the very reasonable idea (at least in real life) that superpowered people should have at least some regulations on how (or if) they could use their powers to prevent personal abuse and public endangerment.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post

    This one wasn't Tony's fault. It was entirely the fault of Maria Hill jumping the gun and trying to arrest Steve just because he said he didn't like a law that wasn't even made legal yet.

    And Steve's side wasn't blameless. Tony did try extending the olive branch to them. Here's how that went.




  6. #81
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This one wasn't Tony's fault. It was entirely the fault of Maria Hill jumping the gun and trying to arrest Steve just because he said he didn't like a law that wasn't even made legal yet.

    And Steve's side wasn't blameless. Tony did try extending the olive branch to them. Here's how that went.



    People forget that Tony put his hand out for Cap. Tony wanted to talk. He even said what had already happened would be forgiven.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  7. #82
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    People forget that Tony put his hand out for Cap. Tony wanted to talk. He even said what had already happened would be forgiven.
    On 2 other occasions, at the manion and at a baseball field when Stark asked to talk Steve showed up and talked. No shield agents and no other hereos.. just the two of them talking. If that's all Stark wants to do, it's clearly possible. He can talk to Steve without setting a trap and surrounding them with SHIELD agents. But on this particular instance, Stark rather than simply contacting Steve to talk instead suckered Steve in and Steve sort of did the same thing in return.

    Steve (somewhat uncharacteristically) did play dirty there. No arguement. But that was only in response to Stark doing that to him first. So I don't think either side really has the high ground here (at least until Clor shows up...that changes things considerably).

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    On 2 other occasions, at the manion and at a baseball field when Stark asked to talk Steve showed up and talked. No shield agents and no other hereos.. just the two of them talking. If that's all Stark wants to do, it's clearly possible. He can talk to Steve without setting a trap and surrounding them with SHIELD agents. But on this particular instance, Stark rather than simply contacting Steve to talk instead suckered Steve in and Steve sort of did the same thing in return.

    Steve (somewhat uncharacteristically) did play dirty there. No arguement. But that was only in response to Stark doing that to him first. So I don't think either side really has the high ground here (at least until Clor shows up...that changes things considerably).
    He knocked out the teleporters so they would have to stay and talk. Tony put his hand out to Steve to end it right then and there. If Tony would have done what Cap did you wouldn't be saying the same thing. When they talked all the play park. It was a parley and Tony still ended up getting jumped by the underground Avengers. Another time they ended up fist fighting. Right here Tony showed Steve his hand and Cap did what he did. It could have ended right there. So please we've done this debate me and you too many times lol.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 01-15-2020 at 10:39 PM.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  9. #84
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    He knocked out the teleporters so they would have to stay and talk. Tony put his hand out to Steve to end it right then and there. If Tony would have done what Cap did you wouldn't be saying the same thing. When they talked all the play park. It was a parley and Tony still ended up getting jumped by the underground Avengers. So please we've done this debaate me and you too many times lol.
    Tony DID do what Cap did... that's my point. They both suckered each other into a trap. Neither one comes off looking all that great here (though in Steves case at least it's uncharacteristic).

    Problem being ultimately them talking is pointless. The law is the law... Stark couldn't change it if he wanted to, and Caps side weren't about to compromise themselves by assisting Stark in implementing the law. As much as Tony might have wanted to end things there, really things were never going to truely end until the country came to their senses and ended the law (which didn't happen until Osborns fall). Until then, all the heroes can do is what we saw here... escape the government until the government gets bored chasing after them and moving on to other things. But it was too soon for that to happen here.

    Ultimately the sollution to this entire problem proved very simple... just wait. Eventually Shield side would stop hunting the heroes. Eventually Congress was going to toss out the law. Steves side just needed to avoid getting thrown in the negative zone, and wait the whole thing out. Took a couple years but it all went away.

  10. #85
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Tony DID do what Cap did... that's my point. They both suckered each other into a trap. Neither one comes off looking all that great here (though in Steves case at least it's uncharacteristic).

    Problem being ultimately them talking is pointless. The law is the law... Stark couldn't change it if he wanted to, and Caps side weren't about to compromise themselves by assisting Stark in implementing the law. As much as Tony might have wanted to end things there, really things were never going to truely end until the country came to their senses and ended the law (which didn't happen until Osborns fall). Until then, all the heroes can do is what we saw here... escape the government until the government gets bored chasing after them and moving on to other things. But it was too soon for that to happen here.

    Ultimately the sollution to this entire problem proved very simple... just wait. Eventually Shield side would stop hunting the heroes. Eventually Congress was going to toss out the law. Steves side just needed to avoid getting thrown in the negative zone, and wait the whole thing out. Took a couple years but it all went away.
    Tony was the one that watched over the secret identity's. He could have given that job to Cap.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  11. #86
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    Tony was the one that watched over the secret identity's. He could have given that job to Cap.
    Doesn't matter who runs it. The SHRA itself is wrong, regardless of whether it's Steve or Tony running it. Until the country came to it's sense and tossed the law out (which didn't happen until after Siege), the heroes weren't going to support it. Steve being in charge of throwing people into a negative zone prison for violating an uconstitutional law doesn't magically make it okay. It's wrong regardless of who is doing it, not that Steve would.

    Again, the point being the only real sollution to the situation was to wait until the law simply went away. Eventually the public and government does realize it... it just takes times. And of course it also means doing your best not to get locked in the negative zone until that happens.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Doesn't matter who runs it. The SHRA itself is wrong, regardless of whether it's Steve or Tony running it. Until the country came to it's sense and tossed the law out (which didn't happen until after Siege), the heroes weren't going to support it. Steve being in charge of throwing people into a negative zone prison for violating an uconstitutional law doesn't magically make it okay. It's wrong regardless of who is doing it, not that Steve would.

    Again, the point being the only real sollution to the situation was to wait until the law simply went away. Eventually the public and government does realize it... it just takes times. And of course it also means doing your best not to get locked in the negative zone until that happens.
    With Cap and Tony together they could have changed it from the inside. Make it less strict and also more heroes would have supported it with Cap and Tony together. It sure looks like they are bringing a version of the SHRA back in Outlawed.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    With Cap and Tony together they could have changed it from the inside. Make it less strict and also more heroes would have supported it with Cap and Tony together. It sure looks like they are bringing a version of the SHRA back in Outlawed.
    Cap and Tony can't change the law, and that's ultimately what needed to happen. Only 2 things could have... Congress (which is exactly what ended up happening) or the courts. The SHRA wasn't your typical super hero problem... it's not something Cap and Tony can punch out to save the day.

    They can enforce the law more leniently (ie basically ignore the law anytime it's convenient to do so... Stark started doing that around Secret Invasion). But that doesn't really fix the problem. And it forces people like Steve to compromise their beleifs in the process. Ultimately everyone from Stark to Hill to the President to the public to Congress does come to agree the law is wrong and needs to be thrown out... but that's not something that was going to happen overnight. It takes times. That was the REAL sollution to the problem. Just wait, everyone will realize the law is wrong, and it will go away. The key was to just not get arrested until that happens.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Cap and Tony can't change the law, and that's ultimately what needed to happen. Only 2 things could have... Congress (which is exactly what ended up happening) or the courts. The SHRA wasn't your typical super hero problem... it's not something Cap and Tony can punch out to save the day.

    They can enforce the law more leniently (ie basically ignore the law anytime it's convenient to do so... Stark started doing that around Secret Invasion). But that doesn't really fix the problem. And it forces people like Steve to compromise their beleifs in the process. Ultimately everyone from Stark to Hill to the President to the public to Congress does come to agree the law is wrong and needs to be thrown out... but that's not something that was going to happen overnight. It takes times. That was the REAL sollution to the problem. Just wait, everyone will realize the law is wrong, and it will go away. The key was to just not get arrested until that happens.
    What do you think about them bringing it or a form of it back in Outlawed?
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  15. #90
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    What do you think about them bringing it or a form of it back in Outlawed?
    If I understand it correctly, it's a law that requires people to be an adult in order to be a super hero. That to me seems reasonable actually.

    Firstly it's not a super HUMAN registration act... it's a super HERO registration act. Meaning it's legistiating about what you're doing instead of what you are. Miles in theory shouldn't be violating the law simply because he's sitting on his living room couch like Cage did with the SHRA... you have to actively be doing something unlawful.

    Secondly, I honestly agree with the law in principal. I wouldn't want minors being police or soldiers, and I honestly don't think they need to be super heroes.

    Course, like the SHRA we have to see how the law is enforced. If they're building homicidal clones to hunt down teen heroes and tossing them into the negatize zone then we've got a pretty big problem.

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