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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The price of writing those stories, and the price of justifying those stories, is the permanent loss of respect for your judgment and taste. And you never get it back.
    From you, maybe.

    Somehow Quesada will have to carry on.

    Other people, of course, aren't so uptight.

    They realize that not every story is going to land as planned.

    They realize that not every decision is going to be one they agree on.

    In life, as in comics, 100% perfection isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Jim Shooter himself talks about it here (http://jimshooter.com/2011/09/three-...-or-holy.html/). If there had been no fan support and agreement to it, if that fan hadn't asked that question then to Stan, it wouldn't have happened. It was a spontaneous and unplanned thing at a public gathering.
    For the umpteenth time, you're introducing "evidence" that does not mean what you think it does. What a shock.

    From Shooter, in his blog entry:

    "Toward the end, someone in the back asked Stan if he was ever going to have Spider-Man get married. A lot of people in the crowd voiced support."

    "A lot of people in the crowd" at one convention is not a mandate from fandom.

    And, as Shooter tells the story, saying yes was more about feeling pressure in the moment from Stan.

    As Shooter relates:

    "Stan said that it was up to “Marvel’s entire editor,” and right then, right there in front of all those people, Stan asked me if I would allow Spider-Man to get married."

    As Shooter says:

    "...Anything to do with the comics that Stan wanted I would have cheerfully done."

    Of course some fans were all for the idea of Peter marrying MJ. It's just as true that many weren't.

    Marvel went ahead with it anyway, knowing full well that no matter what it would guarantee a ton of publicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Shooter then went to Jim Salicrup (editor of Spider-Man) and asked what he thought about it. And Salicrup agreed that it would be a great idea. Lot of the writers of Spider-Man titles at the time, PAD, and JMD approved it as well, as did Sal Buscema and Todd McFarlane.
    Yes, some people working on the books were for it, others weren't and had to be convinced to go along with it. This is all well documented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I said specifically whether there were any shakeups in Avengers going "no more Avengers". The answer to that is no. Quit moving the goalpost. That x-men stories were in an editorially mandated rut and stagnation was well known and is of no concern.
    I'm not moving the goal posts. You are. It must be exhausting.

    You're trying to claim that there was no ramp up to HoX/PoX and that is incorrect. There was.

    In the same way that Bendis' New Avengers was preceded by Avengers: Disassembled, HoX/PoX was preceded by X-Men: Disassembled.

    And the X-Men were not in an "editorially mandated rut." That is incorrect.

    You're perpetrating a false perception that Marvel was deliberately making bad X-books.

    They may have been in a creative rut but it was not editorially mandated.

    And certainly, there were still good X-books being made, it's just that the line as a whole wasn't gelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Marvel's not supposed to be the company that apes DC you know.
    They aren't. I simply stated that the industry has changed and that readers have increasingly shown a demand for both Marvel and DC to make event storylines that "matter," hence we see more events that have a broader, line-wide impact.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    From Shooter, in his blog entry:

    "Toward the end, someone in the back asked Stan if he was ever going to have Spider-Man get married. A lot of people in the crowd voiced support."
    If this person, and the audience at that convention had not made their voices heard, would the marriage have happened in that time and place? The answer is no. That was my point. End of discussion.

    You're trying to claim...
    I said very clearly, 'Was there a story that went "No more avengers" before House of X?" The answer to that is no. End of discussion.

    This entire sub-discussion began when this poster said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    This is nonsense. In 2004, when the New Avengers comic was being put together, the idea of Marvel Studios becoming a behemoth with a string of successful Avengers films was pie in the sky.
    To which I replied

    The plan for what became the MCU was the brainchild of David Maisel and he hatched it in 2003 which is where he met Ike Perlmutter and others about holding on to the rights of characters Marvel already had (https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-...-david-maisel/).
    To which I further demonstrated:

    An entity called Marvel Studios has been in existence since the 1970s. It was only in 2005 that it became Marvel Entertainment (I made this error myself so this is on me as much as anyone), which produced the movies. David Maisel's plan was in 2003 and he met with Perlmutter, Arad and others to discuss it. And in 2004, he worked with Lionsgate to produce animated DTV movies as proof of concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Animated_Features). All of them focused on characters they had exclusive rights to, including Iron Man, Thor, Black Panther, Avengers.
    Did the idea for focusing on characters Marvel had rights to originate in 2003? The answer to that is Yes.

    Was there evidence that Marvel made real plans to put that into effect between 2003-2004? The answer to that is Yes.

    End of discussion.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; Today at 03:53 PM.

  3. #138
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Okay, can we stop writing essays for every reply?! It's nearly impossible to keep up if you all exhaust every word in the dictionary! On top of that, you've all derailed this thread to oblivion and aren't coming to any type of consensus. This is ridiculous.
    but you're going to end up with a super buff scrolling finger
    troo fan or death

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If this person, and the audience at that convention had not made their voices heard, would the marriage have happened in that time and place? The answer is no. That was my point. End of discussion.
    You tried to depict the motivation for the Spider-Marriage as a response to an irresistible tsunami of fan enthusiasm, not "if this one guy hadn't asked a question at a convention, the marriage probably wouldn't have happened."

    What exactly happened was not the "grassroots movement" you tried to paint it as.

    And ultimately, the marriage was an executive decision.

    As David Michelinie stated, his preference was not to write a married Peter, he lobbied against it but editorial had the final say.

    The fact that he acquiesced to that and eventually came to enjoy writing Peter and MJ as a married couple doesn't change the fact that this was an editorial decree from on high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I said very clearly, 'Was there a story that went "No more avengers" before House of X?" The answer to that is no. End of discussion.
    The fact is it doesn't matter of there was a story prior to HoX/PoX that wiped out the Avengers.

    One has nothing to do with the other.

    CW didn't need HoM to happen in order to tell its story or to be successful. HoM wasn't about clearing the path for CW.

    You're trying to connect dots and ascribe meaning where there is none.

    HoX/PoX, however, did not appear out of nowhere. It arrived with as much fanfare and hype to push it on readers as any other Marvel event.

    Yes, readers responded to it. But they responded to CW too. The enthusiasm for one is no less genuine than enthusiasm for the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Did the idea for focusing on characters Marvel had rights to originate in 2003? The answer to that is Yes.

    Was there evidence that Marvel made real plans to put that into effect between 2003-2004? The answer to that is Yes.

    End of discussion.
    No one is arguing that Marvel doesn't have a desire to promote their properties and that they often make plans with an eye to outside media depictions (my least favorite instance of which would be having Spidey develop organic webbing in order to synch up with the Raimi films) hoping that interest in movies, cartoons, and so on will spill over to the comics, but saying that stories like CW and HoM were conceived of strictly to carry out a corporate agenda of elevating the Avengers and tanking the X-Men - which is exactly what you're saying - is a whole other thing.

    That's what no one agrees with because there is simply no foundation for it.

    And that's where the discussion should end.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; Today at 05:18 PM.

  5. #140
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    "if this one guy hadn't asked a question at a convention, the marriage probably wouldn't have happened."
    The answer is that it would not have happened. There was no plan from marketing or editorial pique to do it beforehand. Even Stan Lee didn't go in expecting it. It came from the fans. Without that, it would not have happened. It was an act of public acclamation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acclamation). Whereas there was no such enthusiasm and showing for the Avengers at any point before, nor for Iron Man to be at the center of things. So the two things are not comparable. Fact is it was a spontaneous unplanned thing, and as befitting the term "Grassroots" that it's not a wide movement is immaterial since we are talking about comics fandom and not actual movements.

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