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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The price of writing those stories, and the price of justifying those stories, is the permanent loss of respect for your judgment and taste. And you never get it back.
    From you, maybe.

    Somehow Quesada will have to carry on.

    Other people, of course, aren't so uptight.

    They realize that not every story is going to land as planned.

    They realize that not every decision is going to be one they agree on.

    In life, as in comics, 100% perfection isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Jim Shooter himself talks about it here (http://jimshooter.com/2011/09/three-...-or-holy.html/). If there had been no fan support and agreement to it, if that fan hadn't asked that question then to Stan, it wouldn't have happened. It was a spontaneous and unplanned thing at a public gathering.
    For the umpteenth time, you're introducing "evidence" that does not mean what you think it does. What a shock.

    From Shooter, in his blog entry:

    "Toward the end, someone in the back asked Stan if he was ever going to have Spider-Man get married. A lot of people in the crowd voiced support."

    "A lot of people in the crowd" at one convention is not a mandate from fandom.

    And, as Shooter tells the story, saying yes was more about feeling pressure in the moment from Stan.

    As Shooter relates:

    "Stan said that it was up to “Marvel’s entire editor,” and right then, right there in front of all those people, Stan asked me if I would allow Spider-Man to get married."

    As Shooter says:

    "...Anything to do with the comics that Stan wanted I would have cheerfully done."

    Of course some fans were all for the idea of Peter marrying MJ. It's just as true that many weren't.

    Marvel went ahead with it anyway, knowing full well that no matter what it would guarantee a ton of publicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Shooter then went to Jim Salicrup (editor of Spider-Man) and asked what he thought about it. And Salicrup agreed that it would be a great idea. Lot of the writers of Spider-Man titles at the time, PAD, and JMD approved it as well, as did Sal Buscema and Todd McFarlane.
    Yes, some people working on the books were for it, others weren't and had to be convinced to go along with it. This is all well documented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I said specifically whether there were any shakeups in Avengers going "no more Avengers". The answer to that is no. Quit moving the goalpost. That x-men stories were in an editorially mandated rut and stagnation was well known and is of no concern.
    I'm not moving the goal posts. You are. It must be exhausting.

    You're trying to claim that there was no ramp up to HoX/PoX and that is incorrect. There was.

    In the same way that Bendis' New Avengers was preceded by Avengers: Disassembled, HoX/PoX was preceded by X-Men: Disassembled.

    And the X-Men were not in an "editorially mandated rut." That is incorrect.

    You're perpetrating a false perception that Marvel was deliberately making bad X-books.

    They may have been in a creative rut but it was not editorially mandated.

    And certainly, there were still good X-books being made, it's just that the line as a whole wasn't gelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Marvel's not supposed to be the company that apes DC you know.
    They aren't. I simply stated that the industry has changed and that readers have increasingly shown a demand for both Marvel and DC to make event storylines that "matter," hence we see more events that have a broader, line-wide impact.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    From Shooter, in his blog entry:

    "Toward the end, someone in the back asked Stan if he was ever going to have Spider-Man get married. A lot of people in the crowd voiced support."
    If this person, and the audience at that convention had not made their voices heard, would the marriage have happened in that time and place? The answer is no. That was my point. End of discussion.

    You're trying to claim...
    I said very clearly, 'Was there a story that went "No more avengers" before House of X?" The answer to that is no. End of discussion.

    This entire sub-discussion began when this poster said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    This is nonsense. In 2004, when the New Avengers comic was being put together, the idea of Marvel Studios becoming a behemoth with a string of successful Avengers films was pie in the sky.
    To which I replied

    The plan for what became the MCU was the brainchild of David Maisel and he hatched it in 2003 which is where he met Ike Perlmutter and others about holding on to the rights of characters Marvel already had (https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-...-david-maisel/).
    To which I further demonstrated:

    An entity called Marvel Studios has been in existence since the 1970s. It was only in 2005 that it became Marvel Entertainment (I made this error myself so this is on me as much as anyone), which produced the movies. David Maisel's plan was in 2003 and he met with Perlmutter, Arad and others to discuss it. And in 2004, he worked with Lionsgate to produce animated DTV movies as proof of concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Animated_Features). All of them focused on characters they had exclusive rights to, including Iron Man, Thor, Black Panther, Avengers.
    Did the idea for focusing on characters Marvel had rights to originate in 2003? The answer to that is Yes.

    Was there evidence that Marvel made real plans to put that into effect between 2003-2004? The answer to that is Yes.

    End of discussion.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-18-2020 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Okay, can we stop writing essays for every reply?! It's nearly impossible to keep up if you all exhaust every word in the dictionary! On top of that, you've all derailed this thread to oblivion and aren't coming to any type of consensus. This is ridiculous.
    but you're going to end up with a super buff scrolling finger
    troo fan or death

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If this person, and the audience at that convention had not made their voices heard, would the marriage have happened in that time and place? The answer is no. That was my point. End of discussion.
    You tried to depict the motivation for the Spider-Marriage as a response to an irresistible tsunami of fan enthusiasm, not "if this one guy hadn't asked a question at a convention, the marriage probably wouldn't have happened."

    What exactly happened was not the "grassroots movement" you tried to paint it as.

    And ultimately, the marriage was an executive decision.

    As David Michelinie stated, his preference was not to write a married Peter, he lobbied against it but editorial had the final say.

    The fact that he acquiesced to that and eventually came to enjoy writing Peter and MJ as a married couple doesn't change the fact that this was an editorial decree from on high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I said very clearly, 'Was there a story that went "No more avengers" before House of X?" The answer to that is no. End of discussion.
    The fact is it doesn't matter of there was a story prior to HoX/PoX that wiped out the Avengers.

    One has nothing to do with the other.

    CW didn't need HoM to happen in order to tell its story or to be successful. HoM wasn't about clearing the path for CW.

    You're trying to connect dots and ascribe meaning where there is none.

    HoX/PoX, however, did not appear out of nowhere. It arrived with as much fanfare and hype to push it on readers as any other Marvel event.

    Yes, readers responded to it. But they responded to CW too. The enthusiasm for one is no less genuine than enthusiasm for the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Did the idea for focusing on characters Marvel had rights to originate in 2003? The answer to that is Yes.

    Was there evidence that Marvel made real plans to put that into effect between 2003-2004? The answer to that is Yes.

    End of discussion.
    No one is arguing that Marvel doesn't have a desire to promote their properties and that they often make plans with an eye to outside media depictions (my least favorite instance of which would be having Spidey develop organic webbing in order to synch up with the Raimi films) hoping that interest in movies, cartoons, and so on will spill over to the comics, but saying that stories like CW and HoM were conceived of strictly to carry out a corporate agenda of elevating the Avengers and tanking the X-Men - which is exactly what you're saying - is a whole other thing.

    That's what no one agrees with because there is simply no foundation for it.

    And that's where the discussion should end.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 01-18-2020 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    "if this one guy hadn't asked a question at a convention, the marriage probably wouldn't have happened."
    The answer is that it would not have happened. There was no plan from marketing or editorial pique to do it beforehand. Even Stan Lee didn't go in expecting it. It came from the fans. Without that, it would not have happened. It was an act of public acclamation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acclamation). Whereas there was no such enthusiasm and showing for the Avengers at any point before, nor for Iron Man to be at the center of things. So the two things are not comparable. Fact is it was a spontaneous unplanned thing, and as befitting the term "Grassroots" that it's not a wide movement is immaterial since we are talking about comics fandom and not actual movements.

  6. #141
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    this thread has had more endings than 'the return of the king' movie
    troo fan or death

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The answer is that it would not have happened. There was no plan from marketing or editorial pique to do it beforehand. Even Stan Lee didn't go in expecting it. It came from the fans. Without that, it would not have happened. It was an act of public acclamation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acclamation). Whereas there was no such enthusiasm and showing for the Avengers at any point before, nor for Iron Man to be at the center of things. So the two things are not comparable. Fact is it was a spontaneous unplanned thing, and as befitting the term "Grassroots" that it's not a wide movement is immaterial since we are talking about comics fandom and not actual movements.
    That the idea of marrying Peter and MJ would have occurred to someone in editorial at some point seems inevitable. Peter did previously propose to MJ after all.

    So it's safe to say that this was not an idea so outside the box that it never would have happened without an outside incident to motivate it.

    As for the response at a con validating it, it makes for a nice story but the truth is nothing happens at the whim of a small number of fans. In the end, everything is a decision made at the top.

    And saying that fans never asked for The Avengers or Iron Man to be at the center of the MU and therefore it's not as legitimate as the Spider-wedding is stupid on so many levels it's hard to know where to start.

    First, "the fans" didn't ask for the wedding. A handful of fans at one con expressed enthusiasm for the idea. That's not a mandate from fandom at large. I don't know if you've ever been to a con but fans tend to be enthusiastic about a lot of things. They're not inclined to erupt in a chorus of boos if Stan Lee asks "Hey, what do you think of this?"

    If someone had happened to ask at that con whether Peter should marry Felicia Hardy, the response would have surely elicited just as much enthusiasm.

    So let's not pin so much validation on the "but the fans cried out for it" card. Fans call out for lot of things. It's up to editorial to make the real decisions about them.

    Secondly, saying "but the fans never asked for The Avengers or Iron Man to be at the center of the universe!" has two problems with it. One, the Avengers already were at the center of the MU. This is not something that only happened post 2000. The Avengers were always regarded as the MU's #1 team. No matter how well the book sold in various eras, there's never been any doubt about their standing in-universe. And Iron Man has always been an important player in the MU. I mean, the Avengers operated out of his mansion and on his dime for years. It's not like we're talking about some obscure no name who had to be forced into a spotlight position.

    The other problem is the belief that fans must ask for something before it can happen and if they didn't express a previous interest in it, then it's being forced on them and it's not "organic." This is, for obvious reasons, dumb.

    If everything was put to a fan vote before a creative decision was made, nothing would ever happen. Even the Spider-marriage wasn't a result of an actual survey of what fans wanted. A question from Stan Lee got a favorable reaction from some fans at a con and they ran with it. Who knows what the result would have been if they asked for a show of hands or if they had taken an actual vote. Or if they had put out a poll for the readership. We'll never know.

    But creative decisions are made all the time that fans didn't know they wanted or that they would like until they read it. How many characters and storylines would have never seen the light of day had Marvel asked for the consent of the fans before pulling the trigger on them?

    Creativity can't thrive on polling the readership as to what they want. Writers, artists and editors have to act on their own instincts. That's how stories unfold in a spontaneous, organic way, not by running every idea by the fans first.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That the idea of marrying Peter and MJ would have occurred to someone in editorial at some point seems inevitable.
    The "idea of marrying Peter and MJ" a la Tom King's banal Batman-Catwoman buildup/fakeout, is not the same as an actual wedding, and a married status-quo. In fact such an idea (which was building to a wedding and then backing out at the end) was hatched by Tom Defalco and Ron Frenz and they were building up to it before Jim Owsley got them removed around the same time, but before Shooter's directive reached them. An actual wedding and married status-quo was not inevitable. No writer had the freedom to actually put that, it could only have happened by total accident and circumstance as it did in 1986 (year of the convention) and 1987 (year of the wedding). It was a happy accident. The point is that the marriage didn't originate as some marketing stunt. It came from the fans, not all fans but from the fans nevertheless, that's inarguable Even the Shea Stadium thing was actually a late development. Tom Defalco talks about this in Comics-Creators on Spider-Man where he points out that the initial announcement got picked up by the media and generated a lot of interest and attentions which Marvel didn't expect, that included gatherings at comic stores across the country where fans gathered and held impromptu celebrations for the nuptials and so on. None of that was planned by Marvel. And only after seeing that did the Shea Stadium thing happened. It wasn't something that Marvel had full control over.

    I think this was something exceptional because Lee didn't always listen to the fans. He didn't always say yes, and usually if it was something he would rather not have an opinion on, he would have found an elegant way to defuse it and leave the curious fan feeling satisfied nonetheless. Jim Shooter wasn't some softie, this was a guy who vetoed Bill Mantlo's pitch to have Felicia Hardy pregnant with Peter's child out of wedlock on the grounds that this would bring the wrath of the Bible Belt down on their flagship character, who had explicit morality clauses in place when they licensed him to companies that sold products for children. So I think that was a case where the moment got the better of them and got them to drop their guard and do what they otherwise would not have done. In Jim Shooter's case it was a bit like that story of the guy who is given a public dare to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, and then decides that well, I guess I have to jump off the bridge after all.

    I don't know if you've ever been to a con but fans tend to be enthusiastic about a lot of things.
    The Chicago Convention wasn't exactly Comic Con, and Comic Con in the '80s wasn't what it is now. The crowd came for Stan Lee mainly. And it's not clear if they were referring to the newspaper strip or the actual monthly title. After all, Stan Lee's newspaper strip actually had, on an eyeball count, more readers than 616 Spider-Man at the time. The marriage's popularity owed itself to the newspaper strip, to the fact that it attracted new readers to the title, as well as older readers who had given up on Spider-Man for what Alan Moore pointed out was its stagnation back in 1983:

    "The worst thing was that everything had ground to a halt. The books had stopped developing. If you take a look at a current Spider-Man comic, you’ll find that he’s maybe twenty years old, he worries a lot about whats right and what’s wrong, and he has a lot of trouble with his girlfriends...Do you know what Spider-Man was doing fifteen years ago? Well, he was about nineteen years old, he worried a lot about what was right and what was wrong and he had a lot of trouble with his girlfriends."
    — Alan Moore, Blinded by the Hype, 1983, The Daredevils.

    Actual ongoing readers of the Spider-Man 616 title were more polarized, with some liking it (such as the young Ta-Nehisi Coates among others) and others having issues with it (the young Joe Quesada among others) but while a large number they were actually not as big as the total readership of Spider-Man and the Spider-Man fandom.

    Just for the record...you brought the marriage into this discussion. Not me. Just want to lay that out for everyone. I have a (deserved) reputation for doing that, but this time it's all on the namesake of Gwen Stacy's creepy college professor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Carny stunts like the Spider-wedding?
    What it comes down to is, had that question not been asked then and there, the marriage wouldn't have happened. That's what I mean. Without the marriage, the following things would happen - Michelinie would write ASM, Todd McFarlane would drawn, JMD would write a story similar to KLH but one that would be different from what we have. The only story idea Michelinie had for ASM was his Venom story he was building up in Web of Spider-Man, so we might have Venom also. But a marriage story between Peter and MJ, not so much.

    So it wasn't inevitable or in the cards. Nothing is inevitable. Everything is contingent. And the reason why What-If plots work so well in comics is because the actual reality of publishing is always in that state of What-If. OMD wasn't inevitable either. A lot of factors could have stopped it from happening.

    ---

    One, the Avengers already were at the center of the MU.
    They weren't. The official center of the Marvel Universe was and remains the Fantastic Four, the First Family. They were the biggest team in the '60s, and it's the Penthouse of the Skyscraper that Jack and Stan built. Until 2004, Spider-Man wanted to be Reed Richards and not Tony Stark. And indeed writers and fans sometimes cited Peter's marriage to MJ as making him more Reed-esque. That Reed and Sue were the older boring married couple, while Peter and MJ were the younger cooler one.

    The Avengers were always regarded as the MU's #1 team.
    No they weren't (http://sequart.org/magazine/57245/ho...rvel-universe/)

    "The individual members of The Avengers were, by design, the kinds of characters who (with exceptions) those who couldn’t necessarily sustain their own book. The Hulk, although not really a member, is one example. When the Avengers came on the scene, his book was gone & it was his brief tenure on the team that put him in the spotlight. Captain America & Iron Man had steady followings. Thor would be a consistent presence for the publisher and, like the X-Men and Daredevil, achieved greatness in the 1980s under writer/artist Walter Simonson. But The Avengers itself was never a particularly famous book. The team was always important—important enough to spawn spinoffs like West Coast Avengers and the obviously ‘90s Force Works—but it didn’t start becoming the face of Marvel until 2004. "

    https://www.cbr.com/comic-legends-di...x-men-fill-in/

    And it's funny, as Bendis has noted in the years since, "House of M" was really the crossover that started the whole "Avengers as the centerpiece of the Marvel Universe" approach of the big Marvel crossover events. So if "Astonishing X-Men" doesn't go on hiatus and we don't have a "House of M," does that still happen? Probably, because Bendis was still likely going to write some sort of event comic down the line and he most likely would have stuck with the characters he was already writing, but it's an interesting question to ponder.

    The other problem is the belief that fans must ask for something before it can happen and if they didn't express a previous interest in it, then it's being forced on them and it's not "organic."
    That's a legitimate argument. Ultimately if you want to defend the Avengers being at the center and so on, you should make a creative case for it. You should be defending House of M on actual story grounds. My feelings about House of M is that this was plainly not an X-Men story and yet it had the biggest consequences on the X-Men continuity. Scarlet Witch was a mutant and Magneto's daughter (at the time) but she wasn't part of the story and ongoing of Morrison and Whedon's runs. Joss Whedon the chief writer of X-Men at the time didn't give approval or assent for it, and indeed his run of Astonishing X-Men actually neglected or didn't address the fallout of Decimation, that happened under later writers.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-19-2020 at 09:18 AM.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You should be defending House of M on actual story grounds.
    This is getting into "DEBATE ME!" territory again, on something people weren't arguing about in the first place. People weren't discussing whether House of M was good or bad. They were pointing out the silliness of your very silly assertion that Marvel published House of M in order to intentionally ruin X-Men and lower the sales of X-Men comics.

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    ...
    So what do you think about the idea of Spider-Man in the Shared Universe?

  11. #146
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    I think Marvel made Human Torch look like a tool in Amazing Spider-Man because they wanted to tank the sales of Fantastic Four and Strange Tales.

  12. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    That the idea of marrying Peter and MJ would have occurred to someone in editorial at some point seems inevitable. Peter did previously propose to MJ after all.

    So it's safe to say that this was not an idea so outside the box that it never would have happened without an outside incident to motivate it.

    As for the response at a con validating it, it makes for a nice story but the truth is nothing happens at the whim of a small number of fans. In the end, everything is a decision made at the top.

    And saying that fans never asked for The Avengers or Iron Man to be at the center of the MU and therefore it's not as legitimate as the Spider-wedding is stupid on so many levels it's hard to know where to start.

    First, "the fans" didn't ask for the wedding. A handful of fans at one con expressed enthusiasm for the idea. That's not a mandate from fandom at large. I don't know if you've ever been to a con but fans tend to be enthusiastic about a lot of things. They're not inclined to erupt in a chorus of boos if Stan Lee asks "Hey, what do you think of this?"

    If someone had happened to ask at that con whether Peter should marry Felicia Hardy, the response would have surely elicited just as much enthusiasm.

    So let's not pin so much validation on the "but the fans cried out for it" card. Fans call out for lot of things. It's up to editorial to make the real decisions about them.

    Secondly, saying "but the fans never asked for The Avengers or Iron Man to be at the center of the universe!" has two problems with it. One, the Avengers already were at the center of the MU. This is not something that only happened post 2000. The Avengers were always regarded as the MU's #1 team. No matter how well the book sold in various eras, there's never been any doubt about their standing in-universe. And Iron Man has always been an important player in the MU. I mean, the Avengers operated out of his mansion and on his dime for years. It's not like we're talking about some obscure no name who had to be forced into a spotlight position.

    The other problem is the belief that fans must ask for something before it can happen and if they didn't express a previous interest in it, then it's being forced on them and it's not "organic." This is, for obvious reasons, dumb.

    If everything was put to a fan vote before a creative decision was made, nothing would ever happen. Even the Spider-marriage wasn't a result of an actual survey of what fans wanted. A question from Stan Lee got a favorable reaction from some fans at a con and they ran with it. Who knows what the result would have been if they asked for a show of hands or if they had taken an actual vote. Or if they had put out a poll for the readership. We'll never know.

    But creative decisions are made all the time that fans didn't know they wanted or that they would like until they read it. How many characters and storylines would have never seen the light of day had Marvel asked for the consent of the fans before pulling the trigger on them?

    Creativity can't thrive on polling the readership as to what they want. Writers, artists and editors have to act on their own instincts. That's how stories unfold in a spontaneous, organic way, not by running every idea by the fans first.
    The best Marvel comic ever does have a scene that shows the Avengers at the center of the Marvel Universe.



    The Avengers are also able to absorb elements of the Marvel Universe in ways Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four and X-Men can't. That is the fundamental difference.

    Spider-Man, Wolverine and the Thing can all be members of the Avengers. Spider-Man, Captain America and the Thing can't really join the X-Men, and the the Fantastic Four is always going to be a title about a small family.

  13. #148
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The best Marvel comic ever does have a scene that shows the Avengers at the center of the Marvel Universe.
    A story that's about Daredevil and the point of that scene is Matt's hidden quieter heroism over the big flashy ones.

    And implicit in that sequence, is the idea that the Avengers uphold the same order and status-quo that keeps Fisk in power.

    The Avengers are also able to absorb elements of the Marvel Universe in ways Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four and X-Men can't.
    It's able to absorb elements because it has no elements of its own.

    To the extent that the Avengers did, as a dumping ground for rejects, it doesn't allow them to absorb elements from Spider-Man, the FF, and the X-Men.

    The Avengers not being the center of Marvel allows for a more diverse universe allowing different characters to breathe on their own and not tending to oversaturation.

    Spider-Man, Wolverine and the Thing can all be members of the Avengers.
    For the (very little) that it's worth.

    Spider-Man can't really join the X-Men, and the the Fantastic Four is always going to be a title about a small family.
    Spider-Man can't really be an Avenger either. He can't be a fully paid member who lives in Avengers Mansion and Avengers Tower and Avengers Island, nor will he join West Coast Avengers.

    He won't have a publicly known secret identity as many Avengers in modern times do. His adventures in the Avengers and with them can never be defining elements of his character. He will never be the Avenger who saves the world, or saves stuff. Spider-Man in new avengers and other titles is basically what he always was, a guest star who comes and goes, there to sell and show up. Just a mascot. Sure there will be a buildup to a future where he becomes the greatest and so on, and the leader, but we the reader will never see that future. Because it's not something that editors will allow to happen in 616.

  14. #149
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A story that's about Daredevil and the point of that scene is Matt's hidden quieter heroism over the big flashy ones.

    And implicit in that sequence, is the idea that the Avengers uphold the same order and status-quo that keeps Fisk in power.



    It's able to absorb elements because it has no elements of its own.

    To the extent that the Avengers did, as a dumping ground for rejects, it doesn't allow them to absorb elements from Spider-Man, the FF, and the X-Men.

    The Avengers not being the center of Marvel allows for a more diverse universe allowing different characters to breathe on their own and not tending to oversaturation.



    For the (very little) that it's worth.



    Spider-Man can't really be an Avenger either. He can't be a fully paid member who lives in Avengers Mansion and Avengers Tower and Avengers Island, nor will he join West Coast Avengers.

    He won't have a publicly known secret identity as many Avengers in modern times do. His adventures in the Avengers and with them can never be defining elements of his character. He will never be the Avenger who saves the world, or saves stuff. Spider-Man in new avengers and other titles is basically what he always was, a guest star who comes and goes, there to sell and show up. Just a mascot. Sure there will be a buildup to a future where he becomes the greatest and so on, and the leader, but we the reader will never see that future. Because it's not something that editors will allow to happen in 616.
    Your petty grudge against the Avengers is showing in spades. I don't know what you have against them, but it's clouding your ability to not only critically analyze what other people are saying, but is also impeding your ability to even LISTEN to what others are saying. Newsflash: you are not the definitive authority on Spider-Man. You are not the end-all source of information and you clearly do not know where to find said information. You've dragged this debate out four or five pages and have said the same thing over and over. Not only are you not debating; you're not making sense. I urge you to stop this and just concede your point.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Newsflash: you are not the definitive authority on Spider-Man.
    That I concede.

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