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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Actually, just a small correction: The Night Gwen Stacy Died took place just after Spidey returned from Canada where he had a battle with the Hulk, and got a cold from it that weakened him in the battle against Goblin. You know, the one. So while it wasn't a big part, the shared universe did play into that story.
    Bit of a stretch, since after all Peter having or not having a cold wasn't a factor in Gwen living or dying. Gwen got killed by the Goblin who rammed his glider into Peter, knocking her from a great height and killing her with the fall. At least going by the story that got written.

    Anyways, the shared universe aspect of Marvel goes back to Day 1. Stan Lee made Marvel stand out because they not only had a continuity, but they shared a world with each other, where DC had neither one (forcing them to adapt).
    DC did have a shared universe. In fact a shared multiverse, it just wasn't well integrated that's all. The Justice League and Justice Society teaming up various heroes and villains existed then, as did World's Finest which was the title of Superman-Batman team-ups.

    What distinguished Marvel was the writing, the artwork, the serialized continuity, and the real-time growth and progression, and value of the stories. That's what forced DC to adapt.

    Many elements spun out of the Fantastic Four such as Doctor Doom/Latveria, Galactus and the Heralds, the Inhumans, the Moloids, Namor/Atlantis (canonized through FF after Timely), Black Panther/Wakanda, the Kree, the Skrulls, and The Negative Zone.
    Yeah eventually it spun into their corner. I mean most people would agree that Black Panther works pretty well standalone. If you watch the movie, until the post-credits scene, it was a self-contained thing. Do a Ctrl+F on the script here (https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...=black-panther) not one mention of Stark, Avenger, Iron Man, Thanos in the entire script.

    Whereas Tony Stark/Stark/Iron Man is mentioned more than 50 times in Spider-Man Homecoming, Avengers mentioned 12 times. (https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...man-homecoming)

    The fact is that a Shared Universe was a fun and cool thing to play around in and it can work that way, but only if it serves the individual stories and characters first and foremost, and if each corner of the Marvel Universe can work independently.

    Like take Jason Aaron's run on Thor, and a story like Gorr the God Butcher. That story doesn't really refer to stuff outside Thor's corner and it works largely within it. A villain like Gorr who challenges Thor's entire identity and values really needs Thor by himself (and his future and past selves, and his potential grand-daughters) to work.

    What matters is how they're written.
    On that I agree. I mean ultimately good writers and artists can make things work.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-15-2020 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #47
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    The biggest embodiment of this is the "below my pay-grade" line in Homecoming. Obviously you need to justify why Tony Stark doesn't go after the Vulture or take care of all villains since otherwise there won't be stories to tell for any other hero. But there are more elegant ways to go about doing it.
    You wouldn't bring in the special forces to deal with a cat burglar. Why would you call in a guy that typically deals with alien invaders or terrorists to deal with simple gun runners? It's like bringing cannons to kill flies.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-15-2020 at 09:22 PM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    But it's central to most of Spider-Man's best stories. I mean read The Master Planner Saga, there's not a single mention or reference, that I am aware of, to any other hero in the Marvel Universe in that story. Nor in The Night Gwen Stacy Died. KLH...well there's one mention of Captain America when Kraven talks about beating Vermin who neither Peter nor Cap beat mano-e-mano...but that's fairly minor.
    As a general rule, the best stories with any character are the ones that are very specific to their world. This is not exclusive to Spider-Man.

    But it's also true that there are exceptions and that very entertaining stories - sometimes great ones - feed off the benefits of a shared universe.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You wouldn't bring in the special forces to deal with a cat burglar. Why would you call in a guy that typically deals with alien invaders or terrorists to deal with simple gun runners? It's like bringing cannons to kill flies.
    Vulture isn't
    -- A simple gun-runner. The guns he runs are alien technology and for a guy who was paranoid about his tech going on the black market, he should be even more so with Chitauri tech.
    -- He's also far more armed than terrorists with guns and rocket launchers, like in that village that Tony attacked after suiting up as Iron Man for the first time.
    -- He operated in secret for 8 years under the noses of SHIELD, Shield-Hydra, Damage Control, the Avengers.
    -- The Vulture technology is pretty formidable, as much as say Ivan Vanko's.
    -- At the time of Homecoming, the Avengers are basically Tony, War Machine (recuperating after the accident in CW), Vision, and shackled by Sokovia Accords moreover. So it's not a very powerful set-up they have since the really powerful and experienced ones are either AWOL (Hulk, Thor) or exiled (Cap, Falcon, Widow, Scarlet Witch) or in House Arrest (Scott Lang, Hawkeye). So Tony doesn't really have a full Avengers unit (which is part of the reason why Thanos was able to roll over everyone in IW).

    That makes Vulture a pretty dangerous threat.

    Sure if you break it down what Vulture does is gun-running, but the guns he runs, and the implications of who could get access to it, are pretty dangerous. Julian Assange is technically a hacker. By the nature of that action, he should be someone for the cops, but because what he hacks are government secrets and so on, and he's backed by Putin and other nationals for cyber-crimes, that makes him dangerous at very high levels.

    So Tony is absolutely wrong to claim that Vulture is below his "pay grade". Vulture as presented in Homecoming is very much a threat of the kind that Tony fought before in his solo adventures. There was no way the FBI could have dealt with Toomes and others. Toomes' weapons would have fried the FBI agents and he had tech that could allow him to infiltrate FBI headquarters and delete and burn files if he chose to do so (like the ones that he uses to phase into that jet at the end of Homecoming).

    But more importantly, Tony telling Peter that Vulture is below his pay grade and ignoring the danger and impact of those weapons which Peter saw first hand is just absurd and insulting, incredibly narcissistic. Homecoming absolutely needed a moment like this:



    When I say that DC is more Democratic than Marvel on a Watsonian level...this is what I am talking about. Superman or Batman would never say anyone is below their pay grade.

  5. #50
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    I kind of feel like talking to you about this is pointless because you're going to keep bringing up the exact same argument with the exact same evidence. It's spinning wheels.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member Skullkid's Avatar
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    Feels weird how you're so focused on Tony saying a smarmy douchey thing, you keep trying to it into this whole thing about Marvel not respecting Spider-Man, the simple fact is Tony's kind of a prick, he's a good guy and a hero but the movies have never shied away from the fact that Tony's kind of a dick and saying something arrogant like that is apart of his character.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    Feels weird how you're so focused on Tony saying a smarmy douchey thing, you keep trying to it into this whole thing about Marvel not respecting Spider-Man, the simple fact is Tony's kind of a prick, he's a good guy and a hero but the movies have never shied away from the fact that Tony's kind of a dick and saying something arrogant like that is apart of his character.
    But the movie seems to come down on him saying "below my pay grade" was right.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    I think the main reason Peter doesn't join teams is because he's fiercely independent. From early on in the Lee/Ditko run, you have this contrast that while he envies organizational superheroes their secure lifestyle, he doesn't take orders.
    Avengers (more then one team)
    Defenders
    Secret defenders
    New fantastic four
    FF
    Outlaws
    X-Men as a teacher
    Frightful four under the same machine that mind controlled sandman

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I kind of feel like talking to you about this is pointless because you're going to keep bringing up the exact same argument with the exact same evidence. It's spinning wheels.
    Why would the evidence ever have to change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Avengers (more then one team)
    Defenders
    Secret defenders
    New fantastic four
    FF
    Outlaws
    X-Men as a teacher
    Frightful four under the same machine that mind controlled sandman

    Most of these above stuff were recent, dating to around 2004. And largely driven by promotion and marketing, i.e. an excuse to generate new Spider-Man costumes to sell more merchandise and toys.

  10. #55
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    Batmans irl popularity leeching into his fiction is frankly one if his worst aspects. Look at Dark Knights Metal. Why does some schlub who saves a city regularly get a bunch of evil dopplegangers turn up as a multiverse ending threat ?

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Most of these above stuff were recent, dating to around 2004. And largely driven by promotion and marketing, i.e. an excuse to generate new Spider-Man costumes to sell more merchandise and toys.
    He got a new uniform for FF, but didnít change his costume when he joined the other teams.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    But the movie seems to come down on him saying "below my pay grade" was right.
    No, it clearly comes down on Peter's side. The Vulture is a threat worth taking seriously and Peter recognizes that, as in turn does the audience, while Tony fails to see it - leaving Peter to have to go rogue and take things into his own hands.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Why would the evidence ever have to change?
    The "evidence" you present frequently doesn't mean what you believe it does.

    You like to make declarative statements that are easily refuted and rather than admit that, you reject nuance and actual facts and choose to dig in deeper to whatever hardline false assertion you're making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Most of these above stuff were recent, dating to around 2004. And largely driven by promotion and marketing, i.e. an excuse to generate new Spider-Man costumes to sell more merchandise and toys.
    Case in point. Someone brings up an excellent point, with examples, and you wave it away because it doesn't support the weak case you're trying to make.

    Every story post-2000 or so that has Spider-Man connecting with the larger MU is "driven by promotion and marketing" and therefore doesn't count?

    Come on, that is some Grade A bullsh*t right there.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Most of these above stuff were recent, dating to around 2004. And largely driven by promotion and marketing, i.e. an excuse to generate new Spider-Man costumes to sell more merchandise and toys.
    Joined the defenders in the 80s, Joined secret defenders, fantastic four, avengers, outlaws in the 90s. In fact 1990 on the mark for the avengers! Forgot when the frightful four mind control happened. So most of those were before 2004!

    Other then the ff where he had a white outfit spidey wore his main outfit on these teams as these covers show.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by Gaastra; 01-16-2020 at 07:15 AM.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Batmans irl popularity leeching into his fiction is frankly one if his worst aspects. Look at Dark Knights Metal.
    Well after a bunch of evil Superman stories in AU proliferating around, some evil Batman stories needed as a balance. In fact, I want more evil Batman, was quite impressed by Kevin Conroy's turn as Evil Bruce in the COIE TV special.

    The truth is that people need to do a lot of drastic and absurd things to make Superman evil...either he's raised as a Commie under Stalin, or he's got Daddy Darkseid, or Joker kills Lois and Metropolis at the same time. With Batman, you just need to tell his story straight with honesty and clarity. Was reading Batman White Knight and while it's not a very good story (honestly the premise would work tons better if it was Two Face instead of Joker, the idea of a reformed Joker becoming a charismatic city councilor just doesn't fit the concept of Joker), and the main thing that comes through is that Batman's normal everyday behavior is enough to make him a basket case, rather than him simply becoming a serial killer.

    Why does some schlub who saves a city regularly...
    A schlub who fails to save a city regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    He got a new uniform for FF, but didn’t change his costume when he joined the other teams.
    There was the Iron Spider costume, that Tony gave him when he joined the New Avengers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The "evidence" you present frequently doesn't mean what you believe it does.
    Which does mean that my evidence is evidence, right? If what I present doesn't mean what I believe it does, then it's not something that can be argued against, and the only issue is the interpretation. I am not just making stuff up, right? All you have to do is provide a counter-interpretation to what I present, as opposed to make an issue of me pointing that stuff out.

    Case in point. Someone brings up an excellent point, with examples, and you wave it away because it doesn't support the weak case you're trying to make.

    Every story post-2000 or so that has Spider-Man connecting with the larger MU is "driven by promotion and marketing" and therefore doesn't count?
    Costumes created for marketing purposes don't have to be bad or discounted entirely...like for instance the black costume was brought into Secret Wars'84 to tell toys, and it ultimately made a positive contribution. It's just that because it comes from marketing one cannot entirely treat it as really an organic development of something inherent to the character.

    And the post-2000s Spider-Man being featured in Avengers was definitely marketing driven. Marvel had a vested interest in promoting the Avengers to the center of the MU when before it had never been that. That's why they kneecapped the X-Men during House of M and went "no more mutants" because those properties were tied to Fox and the MCU had already gotten its seed capital with Iron Man entering pre-production. Bendis and others who were commissioned to make the Avengers a thing, felt that the team needed star power and that meant Spider-Man. Stuff like that whole Spider-Man and Tony Stark bonding in JMS' run on Spider-Man (when before they barely had any meaningful interaction) was definitely driven by a need to build Tony up into a major player.

    The thing is Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and X-Men owed their success to the quality of stories, word-of-mouth and genuine audience interest whereas the Avengers and Tony Stark in particular is an astro-turfed phenomenon by and large.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Other then the ff where he had a white outfit spidey wore his main outfit on these teams as these covers show.
    One of those covers, shows "Guest Starring Spider-Man" not Spider-Man is joining the team.

    Guest appearances or one-off appearances and participation which is what these comics you linked are, are not the same as being part of a team.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 01-16-2020 at 07:25 AM.

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