Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash family ? Can it be undone ?

[BohemiaDrinker]

DC Comics has always had messy continuity. Right now it's at its messiest. The much cited Doomsday Clock #12 doesn't fit neatly into continuity for various reasons.

Well, on that we can 100% agree.

During New 52 Manapul and Buccellato presented a completely different premise for how Barry Allen relates to the Speed Force.

Which I loved, btw.

It contradicts the ideas Geoff Johns presented, but it hasn't been officially removed from continuity either. Which counts?

Yeah, but the Manapul/Booch didn't stick, and DC didn't try to make it stick. That's not true for Johns crappy origin that keeps popping up. Further, The Manapul/Booch concept doesn't break anything. If it keeps going, if it's ignored or comes back, it bears absolutely no consequence for anyone.

Recently Joshua Williamson has been hinting at a larger history to the Four Forces, which doesn't mesh well with Flash: Rebirth. What's the origin point of the other Forces? Who generates them?

Hopefully, no one.

The continuity that matters the most is the continuity that gets used, the continuity that's relevant to the story being read, the continuity that generates new stories.

Yeah, and that piece is still out there in the wild, able to take hold of Geoff Johns star power and **** on everyone else at any point. If's not completely negated, it's character ruining. Maybe potentially, maybe praticaly, still needs to be destroyed by means of enthusiastic exorcism and cleansing by fire.

Only an "in the know" reader like yourself would realise that Wally absolutely sucks because of a story concept from ten years ago.

In the era of internet and TPBs, you know it's not true. Just look at manwhohaseverything post up there.

Anyone who started reading The Flash three years ago would be unaware that Wally sucks, and would be at risk of enjoying the character.

Hahahahahaha, you know that os not true either:



But even if it was the case, all that is needed for that be ruined is that crap getting brought again. Which it is from time to time.

[manwhohaseverything]

So, it leaked out of comics... This thing really needs to be nuked!

Well, yeah! Generally, these kind of fans might not be hard core comic readers who buy every single issue. But, they tend to watch the comicstorian, comicsexplained, ign, whatculture... Etc to know what's happening. This was from either ign or whatculture, i believe.
The presenter was ranking dc fastest people. Wally was number 1.so they became butthurt. Its pretty much common knowledge. Barry fans from tv side usually use it, reassure themselves that barry is the only flash that matters.
Ofcourse, the present at the end chanting "west is best" might also have increased their problem.but it had no malice. It was just a catchphrase.

[The Darknight Detective]

I mean, they were butthurt in youtube comments that wally was faster than barry. They began saying stuff like "DC logic barry created and generates speed force. Yet, his sidekick beats him".. Etc

The truth is the fastest Flash is the one currently in the driver's seat, regardless of what past stories say. I know some people will disagree with this, but they are, of course, wrong. Since these characters are not actually real, they can be shaped any which way. Would Wally have ever been the fastest had Barry never died in the '80s? Nope. Heck, neither one of them would have been created had Jay been as successful as Clark and Bruce sales-wise. Just the way it is.

[Dred]

The truth is the fastest Flash is the one currently in the driver's seat, regardless of what past stories say. I know some people will disagree with this, but they are, of course, wrong. Since these characters are not actually real, they can be shaped any which way. Would Wally have ever been the fastest had Barry never died in the '80s? Nope. Heck, neither one of them would have been created had Jay been as successful as Clark and Bruce sales-wise. Just the way it is.

You're demonstrably wrong. Wally wasn't the fastest for years. It took ROBA for him to surpass Jay. Hell Wally wasn't even faster than Max until Terminal Velocity given Max's unique trait.

See, part of the storyline was that Wally was growing into his own and surpassing the previous generations. Whereas Barry just waltzed in, knocked everyone down a few pegs, and was immediately the best without anything but some shitty narration to hold it up.

[The Darknight Detective]

You're demonstrably wrong. Wally wasn't the fastest for years. It took ROBA for him to surpass Jay. Hell Wally wasn't even faster than Max until Terminal Velocity given Max's unique trait.

See, part of the storyline was that Wally was growing into his own and surpassing the previous generations. Whereas Barry just waltzed in, knocked everyone down a few pegs, and was immediately the best without anything but some shitty narration to hold it up.

I never said Wally was the fastest overnight. I said he became the fastest, which he did eventually. I also said Wally would never have been the fastest if Barry had never died, which is also true. Not because Barry is the greatest or any of that type of nonsense, but due to managerial fiat. That's why these type of debates always seem silly to me, because the writers can change this or that in regard to a character's traits or powers when they want to (or when ordered to).

[Lee]

Yeah, but the Manapul/Booch didn't stick, and DC didn't try to make it stick. That's not true for Johns crappy origin that keeps popping up. Further, The Manapul/Booch concept doesn't break anything. If it keeps going, if it's ignored or comes back, it bears absolutely no consequence for anyone.

Geoff Johns' take on the Speed Force hasn't stuck either. You're insisting that "one mention is too much", as though it ruins the entire reading experience going forward, but most readers aren't going to have read every single issue or memorised every single line of dialogue. It's been a non-issue in 99% of Flash comics since Flashpoint.

In terms of the series mythos, it bothers me that Sins Past is still in continuity in Spider-Man comics. I'd like for Marvel to retcon it. But I can't pretend that doing so would "fix" any problems with the current Spider-Man comics, because it's had no impact on the past decade of Spider-Man comics. Even in The Clone Conspiracy, where logically it should have been brought up, it was just completely ignored. Marvel are about to release a new Gwen Stacy mini-series. It's unknown whether or not it will allude to or foreshadow Sins Past, but it seems unlikely. Should we dismiss it as automatically **** because we remember a bad story from a decade ago?

When we talk about these kinds of "fixes", they only fix things for continuity pedants like us, and have no tangible impact on the current stories being told one way or the other.

I never said Wally was the fastest overnight. I said he became the fastest, which he did eventually. I also said Wally would never have been the fastest if Barry had never died, which is also true. Not because Barry is the greatest or any of that type of nonsense, but due to managerial fiat. That's why these type of debates always seem silly to me, because the writers can change this or that in regard to a character's traits or powers when they want to (or when ordered to).

The funny thing is, 2018's Flash War firmly established that Wally is currently faster than Barry. Flash Forward #5 went even further by having Wally run faster than the Speed Force. What does this mean? How does this work? How does this fit with Geoff Johns' Speed Force in Flash: Rebirth?

With both these things in mind, I think it's kind of overblown when people complain about Wally being completely ruined, his power coming from Barry etc. Because if we're talking about canon, taking every line of dialogue as absolute gospel forever and ever - Wally is the fastest being in the multiverse, Wally is faster than the Speed Force.

[Buried Alien]

The funny thing is, 2018's Flash War firmly established that Wally is currently faster than Barry. Flash Forward #5 went even further by having Wally run faster than the Speed Force. What does this mean? How does this work? How does this fit with Geoff Johns' Speed Force in Flash: Rebirth?

With both these things in mind, I think it's kind of overblown when people complain about Wally being completely ruined, his power coming from Barry etc. Because if we're talking about canon, taking every line of dialogue as absolute gospel forever and ever - Wally is the fastest being in the multiverse, Wally is faster than the Speed Force.

And does it matter to Barry fans? Doesn't seem like it. Certainly doesn't matter to me.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[manwhohaseverything]

I never said Wally was the fastest overnight. I said he became the fastest, which he did eventually. I also said Wally would never have been the fastest if Barry had never died, which is also true. Not because Barry is the greatest or any of that type of nonsense, but due to managerial fiat. That's why these type of debates always seem silly to me, because the writers can change this or that in regard to a character's traits or powers when they want to (or when ordered to).

I am going to give you an anime example. In typical shonen, there are two types of powerups. There are powerups that are foreshadowed, that thd character has to get. Second, is random at the spot powerup. The second kind is regarded as bad. For instance, kakashi's susanoo,trunks and goten going super saiyan.. Etc. Wally's boost is the first. Barry's however is the second type. So, no writers can't do whatever. Barry may very well become fastest in the future. But, he will have to earn it for the readers to feel it. Action series cannot be whatever they have their own set of rules that helps audiences connect. If i superman gets beat up by harley quinn who isn't anywhere near his weight class because of some ridiculous powerup. It will be called plot induced stupidity.

[manwhohaseverything]

In doomsday clock, Jay garrick of earth - 2 had powers before speed force came to be and spilt the universe for the first time. So, jay of that universe is pre-speed force. For the people saying jay is under barry.

[Rend20]

And does it matter to Barry fans?

It does to some.

When Wally was established as being faster in Flash War, there were a lot of Barry fans elsewhere bothered by it. Funnily enough, most of their reasoning revolved around how Barry "created/generates the Speed Force" and therefore Wally couldn't possibly be better than him at anything because he has to rely on Barry for his powers.

[Lee]

And does it matter to Barry fans? Doesn't seem like it. Certainly doesn't matter to me.

There are certain segments of super-hero fandom who want their favourite characters to be the strongest, the smartest, the most powerful, the most impressive. The more powerful they are, the better of a character they are. I've never really understood this - I like it when characters have weaknesses and have to overcome challenges. To me, Batman is a better character when a gang of thugs can present a challenge to him, when he can get hurt.

[Buried Alien]

There are certain segments of super-hero fandom who want their favourite characters to be the strongest, the smartest, the most powerful, the most impressive. The more powerful they are, the better of a character they are. I've never really understood this - I like it when characters have weaknesses and have to overcome challenges. To me, Batman is a better character when a gang of thugs can present a challenge to him, when he can get hurt.

I never felt that what made Barry special depended on his being the fastest. Besides, that ship sailed way back in the 1990s. What always made him distinct was his scientific approach to superspeed, which none of the others pursued to the degree Barry did.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[gambit2051]

What is and is not continuity is determined by the "Metaverse" now apparently...the less said about the idea of Johns proposed Metaverse the better, bc it is literally just another way to explain the real f'n world. Whatever the current writer is allowed to decide is what the speed force will be, until another writer comes in to "correct" a bad version or to make it their own...

Which begs the question, why debate about this when so many of you have already pointed out it depends on whose gd interpretation you are using and you consider continuity?

DC has made it VERY clear that they no longer care about Continuity. They only care about current perception, or else DC Rebirth's trends would have continued in far more books. But didn't they "steal" Bendis from Marvel right after that and hand him control of so many brands that it seems like he is the only writer there now (and none of his books have been worth buying)? Did DC ditch their Rebirth "plans" to let Bendis do whatever he wanted?

[Dred]

I never said Wally was the fastest overnight. I said he became the fastest, which he did eventually. I also said Wally would never have been the fastest if Barry had never died, which is also true. Not because Barry is the greatest or any of that type of nonsense, but due to managerial fiat. That's why these type of debates always seem silly to me, because the writers can change this or that in regard to a character's traits or powers when they want to (or when ordered to).

You said that whoever's in the driver's seat is the fastest. That wasn't true for about 100 Wally West comics and it wasn't even really true for about a hundred Barry comics. Wally, as Kid Flash, was just as fast as Barry for years until he got his powers nerfed for Teen Titans. Barry was just smarter and knew how to use his powers better. The entire gimmick was they had the exact same powers. At the time there wasn't any focus on who was "faster" because their powers were just both seen as super speed. "Being faster" only became a real significant part of the storytelling as a way to demonstrate Wally's inferiority and, subsequently, his growth.

Managerial fiat might be the case now, but it doesn't have to be and just as often wasn't. Being the the driver's seat doesn't have to determine anything.

[Lee]

In the early issues of Wally's solo series, he was "The Fastest Man Alive". Barry was slower because he was dead. Jay was slower because he was in limbo.