View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  • Yes

    38 63.33%
  • No

    17 28.33%
  • Maybe

    5 8.33%
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  1. #1
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    Default Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash family ? Can it be undone ?

    A simple question and yeoin my opinion itís similar to Marvel and how they took Spider-Man and OMD. Yet as fans of the Flash and his extended family: What do you think of it and why ?

  2. #2
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Wally was top 3 among dc character in cbr polls before Flashpoint. Now he is 8.he fell and hard. Suffice to say new52, Flashpoint and even rebirth have all been disastrous for the character.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.

    At one point we had Wally, Bart, Jay, Max, and Jesse, with regular guest appearances by other Flash dynasty members like XS and John Fox, and we had the West twins too, towards the end. That was a big family of heroes, each with their own distinct skills and talents and personalities. But once Barry returned, everyone faded into the background. I mean, once when the Flash would meet a Flash from the future, it was a descendant or someone; somebody new. When Barry post-return would meet a Flash from the future....it was just him.

    To a point, I get that. DC wanted to establish that Barry was back on top and didn't want the other guys challenging his popularity (and Wally and the others were very popular). So putting everyone else on time out and giving Barry the focus for a while, yeah that's okay, I get it.

    Then Flashpoint hit, and more importantly the reboot DC piggybacked off it, and the family either no longer existed or had no connections to the Flash, Allen or West families at all. It was a huge demotion for the entire franchise, I think.

    As for Barry, the dead mom thing sucks. It changes his motivations into something we've seen a million times, it's trite, it's base, and it's selfish. But I don't think it's done serious damage to the character, it's just made his origin a little bland.

    Flashpoint itself, in a vacuum, is a pretty fun story. Zoom breaks time, Barry tries to fix it but messes it up, and then has to fix his mistake on top of dealing with Zoom. Fun idea, fun story, and it's always cool to see alternate takes on familiar faces. And Barry isn't even really to blame for the New52 either, that was Pandora. So Flashpoint itself isn't so bad (and I love their version of Cyborg) but that whole era from Barry's rebirth to Flashpoint just set the entire franchise on a downward decline.
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  5. #5
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    I voted "yes" but it wasn't really Flashpoint, it was Barry's return. Barry himself isn't responsible for this, but once he came back no one else in the family mattered.
    Yes I agree. Also not the Barry character himself, but the way DC handled his return (compared to Hal's return).

  6. #6
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    I voted yes, but the real blame falls not on Flashpoint, but Flash: Rebirth.

    And it's not even Barry's return that is the problem, is how they chose to run with it.

    I don't think there will be a healthy Flash Family until every single piece of mythology and/or concepts introduced durting that series is addressed, retconned out, erased and openly mocked on the page. Ignoring it is not enough.
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  7. #7
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    Barry’s initial return didn’t ruin the Flash Family as everybody was still around with their histories intact. Flash: Rebirth also brought Max back from the dead and made Jess Jessie Quick again which was good.

    I did vote yes but people need to understand that it was stuff behind the scenes that ruined the Flash Family and Flashpoint.

    Originally Flashpoint’s ending wasn’t supposed to change anything. What happened was a former executive at WB decided that Vertigo, DC and Wildstorm were needlessly costing WB money that WB could use elsewhere, so he ordered that all three publishing houses be consolidated into only one/DC.

    So Johns was forced to change the ending of Flashpoint and come up with a way to merge the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters together with the DC characters and make things easier for those characters to shine by getting rid of the popular Golden Age characters. That’s when he came up with Pandora and had her merge all 3 universes universes together while Barry was running back to the present.

    That’s why Didio and Lee were demoted to co publishers (when they used to be the heads of DC and Wildstorm) and Diane Nelson was put in charge of everything.

    Diane Nelson then thought it was better to start everything over and Reboot than to try to fit in the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into DC’s then current continuity (like Johns tried to do in Brightest Day) so they came up with The New52.

    So, in stony Flashpoint’s ending ruined the Flash Family but it was really what was going on behind the scenes that screwed them over.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-14-2020 at 01:03 PM.

  8. #8
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Barry’s initial return didn’t ruin the Flash Family as everybody was still around with their histories intact.
    Not really, no.

    The speed force retcon made everyone dependant on Barry, with the added crap bonus of including Barry as the origin of Jay's powers and effectively undoing every milestone of Wally's career speed-wise. Max was never seen again. The only story where Wally appeared and was not playing second fiddle to Barry was an issue of Magog. These characters never again interacted with each other with the one exception being everyone waking up in the middle of the night because Speed-Force engine, creator and God almighty had a bad dream. Wally was down right mandated out of all books. We never seen Impulse Iris in anything. Jesse's costume was crap.

    Flash Rebirth ruined them all, Barry included IMHO. Flashpoint just discarded them, but the damage was already done.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    That’s why Didio and Lee were demoted to co publishers (when they used to be the heads of DC and Wildstorm) and Diane Nelson was put in charge of everything.

    Diane Nelson then thought it was better to start everything over and Reboot than to try to fit in the Vertigo and Wildstorm characters into DC’s then current continuity (like Johns tried to do in Brightest Day) so they came up with The New52.
    This is incorrect, I don't know why people repeat it so much.

    Neither Didio nor Lee were demoted. Didio got the job of publisher taht was previously Levitz's, which has his boss. He was promoted. Lee had sold Wildstorm a long time ago and already had that money, then he gained the highest executive position possible at DC comics itself.

    Diane Nelson was in to oversee DC as it connected to WB, in the hopes of making it more like an ip-farm. Her position was new and connective to the mother-company.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-14-2020 at 01:15 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Yeah, seems like the family may end up back as it was before Flashpoint soon, except with the addition of Avery Ho and the black Wallace West. Flash Forward brings back the kids, and then some partial Doomsday Clock synergisation happens, releasing everybody who's still trapped in the Speed Force (if they need anchors, like how Barry brought Wally back but couldn't do the same for Jay, then Impulse would be Max Mercury's anchor, and he in turn is Jay Garrick's. Jay then serves as Jessie Quick's. Bart apparently didn't need one).
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Not really, no.

    The speed force retcon made everyone dependant on Barry, with the added crap bonus of including Barry as the origin of Jay's powers and effectively undoing every milestone of Wally's career speed-wise. Max was never seen again. The only story where Wally appeared and was not playing second fiddle to Barry was an issue of Magog. These characters never again interacted with each other with the one exception being everyone waking up in the middle of the night because Speed-Force engine, creator and God almighty had a bad dream. Wally was down right mandated out of all books. We never seen Impulse Iris in anything. Jesse's costume was crap.

    Flash Rebirth ruined them all, Barry included IMHO. Flashpoint just discarded them, but the damage was already done.
    I get that you’re one of those Wally fans that is upset with Barry’s return. But a lot of your complaints are over exaggerations to me personally. Barry just returned so they put all of their focus on Barry because they were building up to Flashpoint with the original plan to put more focus on the rest of the Family afterwards. Also, Barry becoming the Speed Force was not even Johns’ idea. It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.

    Anyway, let’s agree to disagree so we don’t derail this thread any further.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I'm not particularly a fan of Flash and its lore, though I tend to like the characters when I read a Flash comicbook or they make an appearance in another title. I think Flashpoint didn't ruin the Flash and the Flash family, at least not forever (I think it's pretty hard to ruin something forever in mainstream comicbooks). I think Flash, as a title, isn't ruined, and I actually liked the first run in the New 52 era.

    As for the extended family, Rebirth has showed that what the New 52 did, can be easily erased. I don't read Young Justice, but it seems that the return of severed relationships by the reboot was undone in a quick way. I don't like what was done with Wally, but Flash Forward looks like the title that will bring back the West family and I think DC has plans to basically return the cast of the Flash family to how it was before the N52, though with the characters changed by some events in their lifes, like what happened with Wally at Sanctuary, which though I don't like, I don't think should be omitted as if it never happened.

    If DC changes courses and gives Wally the Hal Jordan treatment where with a retcon justifies his actions and makes it easier to return him as a hero, I wouldn't be against it but would judge the solution depending in the quality of the story
    Green Lantern: Rebirth was not really a retcon because Green Lantern: Rebirth was GENIUS in its use of already established continuity.

    Johns first used the Moore/Gibbons’ “Tygers” prophecy from Tales of the GLC Annual #1 1984 (where the Guardians first erased their memories of all of the pain, suffering and emotional stress they endured after a thousand years of torture by the Empire of Tears during the war between Orderly Science and Chaotic Magic at the dawn of time) to explain why the Guardians had no memory of the Yellow Impurity that had been inside of the Central Power Battery for thousands of years (and the reason why the rings couldn’t work against anything yellow) also being the Parallax Entity (because after their first initial encounter and subsequent fight against the Parallax Entity the Guardians defeated it, imprisoned it in the Central Power Battery, and then erased their memory of it because their fight was the first time the Guardians had felt “fear” since their torture by the Empire of Tears)

    Then Johns used GLC #221-224* where Hal first entered the Central Power Battery to fight Sinestro from the dead and reveal that the Yellow Impurity that bonded with Sinestro's ghost inside of the Central Power Battery after his execution and that Hal had been exposed to in GLC #221-224 during their fight inside the original Central Power was also SENTIENT/the Parallax Entity.

    From there, Johns uses that encounter in GLC #221-224 to explain away any erratic behaviour and/or out of the blue changes to Hal between GLC #221-224 and Green Lantern: Rebirth as being infected by the Yellow Impurity/Parallax Entity.

    Yeah GL: Rebirth, brought back and exonerated Hal Jordan, but it also brought back Sinestro from the dead, made Guy Gardner a GL again and brought back the entire GLC with a HUGE BANG after 2 big time miniseries (Rebirth and Recharge) that were selling in the hundreds of thousands!
    The best thing to me, though is the effective use of continuity.

    *Also, GLC #221-224 was the same story that O'Neil used to plot his version of Emerald Twilight that Marz scripted. That's why Rebirth made perfect sense to us long time GL fans and why I don’t even think of it as a retcon.
    Last edited by docmidnite; 01-14-2020 at 02:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.
    That may be where Johns got the inspiration from, but that was a very different animal than Barry creating the entire speed force. In that original story Barry becomes the source of his own powers, and the same happens to Wally later on if I recall correctly (leading into the Walter West arc maybe?). But there's miles and miles and miles between that and saying Barry somehow, for no real reason, created a fundamental universal force that transcends all of time, space, and other-dimensional realms.
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  13. #13
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    Most of the Flash family have already returned. It's even been expanded with new speedsters.

  14. #14
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Relax: we cant derail a thread about the Flash family derailment talking about Flash family derailment.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    I get that you’re one of those Wally fans that is upset with Barry’s return.
    Not exactly, no. It's about the execution, really.

    But a lot of your complaints are over exaggerations to me personally. Barry just returned so they put all of their focus on Barry because they were building up to Flashpoint with the original plan to put more focus on the rest of the Family afterwards.
    While we'll never know how true this was (and have serious doubts that it was true at some point. It may have been a point of the now infamous Johns-Didio headbutt contest, sure, but considering Rebirth's content, I doubt it).

    Also, Barry becoming the Speed Force was not even Johns’ idea. It was something Johns borrowed from a Secret Origins story published after CoIE where Barry became the very same lightning that gave him and Wally their powers after his death in CoIE as a result of being hit by the Anti Monitors death ray.
    Well, it was completely his idea. The Flash: Rebirth pitch signed by him and Van Sciver specifically mentions that Barry being the speed force is designed so he is more important to the Flash legacy as Wally or Bart could ever be.(Yes, really). That said, his idea or not, it was a thing that happened and helped kill the Flash Family as a concept. Further, a really big logic leap is necessary top read that Loren Fleming issue and deduce "ok, Barry is the speed force". Like, really big.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That may be where Johns got the inspiration from, but that was a very different animal than Barry creating the entire speed force. In that original story Barry becomes the source of his own powers, and the same happens to Wally later on if I recall correctly (leading into the Walter West arc maybe?). But there's miles and miles and miles between that and saying Barry somehow, for no real reason, created a fundamental universal force that transcends all of time, space, and other-dimensional realms.
    They never said he created it. They said he became it after his death. His particles were spread throughout time and space after being hit by the Anti Monitor’s death ray.

    Anyhow, I never liked the Speed Force as a concept in the first place. I much preferred the metagene instead.

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