View Poll Results: Did Flashpoint ruined the Flash and the Flash Family ?

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  • Yes

    43 62.32%
  • No

    21 30.43%
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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Flashpoint was only temporary so I don't feel that it ruined the Flash Family. It was the New 52 that ruined it.
    Currently Reading:Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Legion of Super Heroes, Shazam, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  2. #47
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You don't think this is hyperbole?
    No, I think it's me reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally holding back.

    You're being very fixated on a tiny piece of the lore that has only been referenced once in the past decade, has been ignored by all other writers, and has had no impact on the characterisation and stories of these characters.
    I can guarantee you that it has been mentioned more than once. It's the main structural piece from Johns run, it's the mechanic that allowed Flashpoint to exist, and it really demotes everybody.

    But of course, even if the sSF retcon wasn't there, Flash: Rebirth would still be crap. Nothing is really salvageable about it.

    It's like arguing that Mopee ruined The Flash forever.
    I"d take Mopee over the Flash Rebirth mythology in a heartbeat.

    Is it fair to say that the Flash Family only existed during Mark Waid's run?
    No, although it's fair to say it was on it's peak then (like almost all things Flash). The dynamic was still present in Johns first run - differently, of course, as Johns take was a more serious one, in Peyer's run and so on.
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  3. #48
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Flashpoint didn’t ruin it.

    Flash: Rebirth did.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I don't disagree.

    But going by the premise of the thread, don't you think that the Flash Family was easily fixable before Rebirth and, after it, not so much? Because that's pretty much my point. Te speed force retcon alone fucks everything.
    I think it's fixable now. Things are very, very easy to fix in comics because of how used to massive retcons we all are.

    If the point of the thread is to put a pin on what ruined the Flash family, it started when they first broke up the Flash family in the mid 2000s. Which was to make way for Barry (despite the delays) so Flash Rebirth is kind of the culmination of the ruining.

  5. #50
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    One day (and it could be soon), someone who grew up reading Wally as their Flash will be elevated into a high position in the DC/WB corporate chain.

  6. #51
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    I still don’t think it was Flash: Rebirth that did as much harm to the Flash Family as much as the reboot did. I mean OF COURSE they were going to focus on Barry. He JUST CAME BACK so they needed time to re-establish him and his new life just like they did with Wally after CoIE (a lot of people seem to forget that the JSA was completely removed from the DCU shortly after CoIE so DC could put all of their focus on re-establishing their characters and their lives in the post-CoIE universe and only brought the JSA back AFTER everything was re-established with their characters and their lives JUST LIKE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY PLANNING TO DO WITH THE FLASH FAMILY AFTER FLASHPOINT before they decided to reboot almost everything from scratch)

    Also, I think DC is lucky all of the fans from the Golden Age were dead by the 90’s because they would’ve been complaining about how Jay, Johnny and Max were playing second fiddle to Wally when Waid was establishing Wally as the greatest speedster to ever run and surpassing them and all of their achievements while they were reduced to playing supporting roles in Wally’s book (whereas before Waid’s run they were the greatest heroes of Earth 2)

  7. #52
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    I think of the Flash as a comic starring the 'Fastest Man Alive'. Not a family of characters.

    In the 90s Waid created a group dynamic that he used to great effect in big stories. But in that era there was still a main flash with a bunch of supporting characters showing up periodically.

    A family of speedsters is one option for the right story, but it's obviously not required to make the Flash a success.

    So- the Flash is a solo book. It was under Jay, then under Barry, under Wally, under Bart, and now under Barry again. How they've gone about transitioning between them has been problematic for sure. But nothing's broken.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    One day (and it could be soon), someone who grew up reading Wally as their Flash will be elevated into a high position in the DC/WB corporate chain.
    Unlikely. The people in corporate positions likely don't even care. It's a niche hobby. It's more likely someone who grew up watching the Flash TV show will come into power at this point. That's the point of excising Wally from external media, or only presenting him as Kid Flash. It completes his future erasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    I still don’t think it was Flash: Rebirth that did as much harm to the Flash Family as much as the reboot did. I mean OF COURSE they were going to focus on Barry. He JUST CAME BACK so they needed time to re-establish him and his new life just like they did with Wally after CoIE (a lot of people seem to forget that the JSA was completely removed from the DCU shortly after CoIE so DC could put all of their focus on re-establishing their characters and their lives in the post-CoIE universe and only brought the JSA back AFTER everything was re-established with their characters and their lives JUST LIKE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY PLANNING TO DO WITH THE FLASH FAMILY AFTER FLASHPOINT before they decided to reboot almost everything from scratch)

    Also, I think DC is lucky all of the fans from the Golden Age were dead by the 90’s because they would’ve been complaining about how Jay, Johnny and Max were playing second fiddle to Wally when Waid was establishing Wally as the greatest speedster to ever run and surpassing them and all of their achievements while they were reduced to playing supporting roles in Wally’s book (whereas before Waid’s run they were the greatest heroes of Earth 2)
    Jay had long since been surpassed by Barry so that torch was long snuffed.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-16-2020 at 04:13 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    No, I think it's me reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally holding back.
    It's hyperbole - "all the characters thinking at least once per issue "how could we believe such nonsense?" for the next 25 years" - I don't think you actually want this or actually think this would make for an enjoyable reading experience for tens of thousands of Flash readers.

    In general, one of the biggest hindrances to discussion in most online fandoms is everything being framed as the absolute best or the absolute worst. A+ or F-.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I can guarantee you that it has been mentioned more than once. It's the main structural piece from Johns run, it's the mechanic that allowed Flashpoint to exist, and it really demotes everybody.
    There have been over 140 Flash comics since Geoff Johns left. I don't recall this plot point coming up in any of them. I don't recall anyone other than Geoff Johns touching it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    No, although it's fair to say it was on it's peak then (like almost all things Flash). The dynamic was still present in Johns first run - differently, of course, as Johns take was a more serious one, in Peyer's run and so on.
    Geoff Johns' first run didn't have many Flash Family team-up stories. When he did do them, it was usually just Jay and Bart. He traded Jesse Quick to the Titans editorial team in exchange for Cyborg.

    Joshua Williamson's current run has had more Flash Family stories than any since Waid's '90s run.

  10. #55
    Incredible Member docmidnite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post


    Jay had long since been surpassed by Barry so that torch was long snuffed.
    Not true at all. I take it you haven’t read many Silver and Bronze Age Flash stories or you would know that they were always treated equally whenever they were paired together. They never raced each other, so there’s no evidence for what you’re claiming there either.
    Barry was the Fastest Man Alive on Earth 1 only. Whereas Jay and Johnny were the Fastest Men Alive on Earth 2

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    a lot of people seem to forget that the JSA was completely removed from the DCU shortly after CoIE so DC could put all of their focus on re-establishing their characters and their lives in the post-CoIE universe and only brought the JSA back AFTER everything was re-established with their characters and their lives JUST LIKE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY PLANNING TO DO WITH THE FLASH FAMILY AFTER FLASHPOINT before they decided to reboot almost everything from scratch)

    Also, I think DC is lucky all of the fans from the Golden Age were dead by the 90’s because they would’ve been complaining about how Jay, Johnny and Max were playing second fiddle to Wally when Waid was establishing Wally as the greatest speedster to ever run and surpassing them and all of their achievements while they were reduced to playing supporting roles in Wally’s book (whereas before Waid’s run they were the greatest heroes of Earth 2)
    This is true. It took 6 years for Jay Garrick to return to the DC Universe. He was completely absent from the first 72 issues of Wally's series. Wally has never been gone for that long.

  12. #57
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    I think of the Flash as a comic starring the 'Fastest Man Alive'. Not a family of characters.

    In the 90s Waid created a group dynamic that he used to great effect in big stories. But in that era there was still a main flash with a bunch of supporting characters showing up periodically.

    A family of speedsters is one option for the right story, but it's obviously not required to make the Flash a success.

    So- the Flash is a solo book. It was under Jay, then under Barry, under Wally, under Bart, and now under Barry again. How they've gone about transitioning between them has been problematic for sure. But nothing's broken.
    Fair enough, but the premise of this thread is not "Did Flashpoint ruin the Flash?". If it was, then it'd be another deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It's hyperbole - "all the characters thinking at least once per issue "how could we believe such nonsense?" for the next 25 years" - I don't think you actually want this or actually think this would make for an enjoyable reading experience for tens of thousands of Flash readers.
    First of all, dude, just chill with the definitions. I really don't feel like another ten pages of "you understood what I meant, but won't let this one word go because it doesn't 100% fits with what is in your dictionary".

    That said, yeah, I absolutely do want that. If we have a book about all the Flash characters sitting in chairs and debating how ludicrously bad every concept on Flash Rebirth is, I'd buy four copies of each issue every month forever, just so I could have one in each room of the house. They don't even have to run or fight anyone.

    In general, one of the biggest hindrances to discussion in most online fandoms is everything being framed as the absolute best or the absolute worst. A+ or F-.
    Nope. I really truly deeply believe that Flash: Rebirth is by far the worst thing ever done to these characters in all of their existence. There are only two comics I hate - because they missed the point by so much - and this is one of them.

    Make no mistake, I'm not exaggerating in any way. It's the absolute worst.

    There have been over 140 Flash comics since Geoff Johns left. I don't recall this plot point coming up in any of them. I don't recall anyone other than Geoff Johns touching it.
    There's a more than one narration/flashback in Willianson's run, the entire mechanic of Flashpoint is dependant on it, and if read up just a little bit in what the original plan for Flashpoint was... oh boy!

    Geoff Johns' first run didn't have many Flash Family team-up stories. When he did do them, it was usually just Jay and Bart. He traded Jesse Quick to the Titans editorial team in exchange for Cyborg.
    No, it didn't have many. But the concept was there and the characters available were in relatively good shape for the better part of his run.

    Joshua Williamson's current run has had more Flash Family stories than any since Waid's '90s run.
    With what he is allowed to touch, sure. There's Wallace and Avery and once every blue moon there's Wally. But I don't know why you mentioned this here, no one is bad mouthing Williamson.
    Last edited by BohemiaDrinker; 01-16-2020 at 06:41 PM.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  13. #58
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    I still don’t think it was Flash: Rebirth that did as much harm to the Flash Family as much as the reboot did. I mean OF COURSE they were going to focus on Barry. He JUST CAME BACK so they needed time to re-establish him and his new life just like they did with Wally after CoIE (a lot of people seem to forget that the JSA was completely removed from the DCU shortly after CoIE so DC could put all of their focus on re-establishing their characters and their lives in the post-CoIE universe and only brought the JSA back AFTER everything was re-established with their characters and their lives
    That's not really the deal with the JSA, but it's another can of worms not fit for this thread.

    JUST LIKE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY PLANNING TO DO WITH THE FLASH FAMILY AFTER FLASHPOINT before they decided to reboot almost everything from scratch)
    Yeah, no.

    I don't know who is this "they" you keep talking about, but DC, the company, was never going to do that. Now, Geoff Johns wanted to do it, sure. He was overruled both on what Flashpoint would be and about the use of the characters. Did he fight to do his way? Every piece of info we have points to the fact that yes, he did. However, way back in 2010 when he made all those promises about a Speed Force book or not having to wait a year to see Wally again, i came here and said that it was not gonna happen, and the higher ups would not let it happen, and it was the case. And it would be the case, reboot or no reboot.

    But even if it wasn't the case: the status quo defined by Flash: Rebirth pretty much ruins those characters anyway, so there's that.

    Also, I think DC is lucky all of the fans from the Golden Age were dead by the 90’s because they would’ve been complaining about how Jay, Johnny and Max were playing second fiddle to Wally when Waid was establishing Wally as the greatest speedster to ever run and surpassing them and all of their achievements while they were reduced to playing supporting roles in Wally’s book (whereas before Waid’s run they were the greatest heroes of Earth 2)
    Sure.

    Also, Emerald Twilight.

    But comparing what Waid did in his run with what Johns did in Flash: Rebirth is a false simmetry. Waid made Wally a big deal by making Wally better. And this took years. Hell, for a good chunk there at the start, right after Jay returned, he was way faster than Wally. Johns made Barry a big deal by making everyone else worse.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    That bit about Barry is true. When he returned, Wally had broken all kinds of barriers (literally) and learned all kinds of tricks that Barry had never imagined. And I'm not knocking Barry here, that guy knew tricks Wally never mastered, but Wally really did surpass him, after years and years of training, effort, and development.

    And it would have been absolutely fascinating to see Wally become a mentor for Barry, taking a Max Mercury type of role, and helping Barry catch up on what he had missed. And the end result could have been Barry once again becoming the best and fastest Flash. He's back, he's the main Flash, so fair enough. But Barry's "connection" to the speed force was just a cheat to get him to that end point quickly. And I think both Barry and Wally were robbed of what could have been a really interesting dynamic, character development, and reversal of their prior relationship. Barry should have earned back the "Fastest man alive" title instead of Johns just handing it to him for nothing, and Wally should have had the chance to be the teacher Barry had once been for him.
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  15. #60
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That bit about Barry is true. When he returned, Wally had broken all kinds of barriers (literally) and learned all kinds of tricks that Barry had never imagined. And I'm not knocking Barry here, that guy knew tricks Wally never mastered, but Wally really did surpass him, after years and years of training, effort, and development.

    And it would have been absolutely fascinating to see Wally become a mentor for Barry, taking a Max Mercury type of role, and helping Barry catch up on what he had missed. And the end result could have been Barry once again becoming the best and fastest Flash. He's back, he's the main Flash, so fair enough. But Barry's "connection" to the speed force was just a cheat to get him to that end point quickly. And I think both Barry and Wally were robbed of what could have been a really interesting dynamic, character development, and reversal of their prior relationship. Barry should have earned back the "Fastest man alive" title instead of Johns just handing it to him for nothing, and Wally should have had the chance to be the teacher Barry had once been for him.
    I don't even think that the reversal of the student-teacher was a necessary direction.

    Hell, I wouldn't care if Barry came back as "King Flash" because "he was on the speed force for so long/merged with the anti-monitor canon/shared his body with Darkseid/whatever"

    But what Flash Rebirth does is basically make Barry go: "Hey, Wally, all the milestones where you thought you surpassed me? Never happened! Hey, Jay, you're not really the original, I AM! Hey Bart, remember when you contained the totality of the speed force? THAT WAS ME, Kid! Max Mercury time jumps? ME, he was running towards ME. Oh,, if I catch a flu, you all lose your powers now. Deal with it!"

    (The last bit seems absurd but it was seriously kinda like the plan they had... ¬¬ )
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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